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Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

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  • #16
    Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Originally posted by HilaryFan View Post
    I am kind of shocked at the lack of 9.5 and 10s for Savage in ring.

    For me, he's top 5 of all time, top 10 minimum, and I thought that was a pretty universally held opinion
    Good point! I gave Mach a 9. I was just using regular whole numbers without using decimal points. But to be frank, I think a 9 to 10 for Savage is about right. Anywhere in that range would be fine.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

      Originally posted by HilaryFan View Post
      I am kind of shocked at the lack of 9.5 and 10s for Savage in ring.

      For me, he's top 5 of all time, top 10 minimum, and I thought that was a pretty universally held opinion
      Good point! I gave Mach a 9. I was just using regular whole numbers without using decimal points. But to be frank, I think a 9 to 10 for Savage is about right. Anywhere in that range would be fine.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

        I'm grading these guys solely on their WWF Golden Age run (84-91) since that's what Kilgore mentioned in his opening post.

        Hogan

        Look- 9.5- In many ways the most iconic look of any wrestler in history. The 24 inch pythons....the red & yellow....a Hall of Fame 'stache. But I must join Emp & Icon in making a slight deduction for the receding hairline.

        Promo- 5- Not a fan of the standard Hogan promo but he can be spectacular when the coke is flowing especially strong and he's buying into his own "Immortal" hype. Wrestlemania IV & the build to Wrestlemania VI come to mind. The one where he pretty much straight up calls his own partner Brutus Beefcake a jobber for two minutes straight is another good example. Delusional batshit insane Hogan is the best Hogan.

        In Ring- 4- Not a fan of the standard Hogan formula match because it only benefits Hulk Hogan but Hogan/Warrior is the Flair/Steamboat of evenly matched roided up superhero epics and his antics in the Genius match were spectacular. Also did some good stuff with former NWA champs Race & Funk. And even his bad matches, of which there were many, felt big.


        Savage

        Look-8. Not huge by 80s WWF standards, and also balding, which actually worked in his favorite during his early heel 'wildman' days the same way it benefited the likes of Necro Butcher, Luke Harper & Buzz Sawyer, but was a negative when he was supposed to be a glamorous WWF babyface champ hanging & banging with Miss Elizabeth. Savage also made up for his lack of size (by 80s WWF standards) with style. His Wrestlemania IV wardrobe changes stand out as an all time great moment in wrestling fashion.

        Promo- 9 Reached batshit insane of levels of awesome far more often than Hogan. Likely due to a better coke supply.

        In Ring- 9- Came close to giving him a 10 here mainly due to the 80s WWF curve but in the end settled for a 9, which is still very high quality. Had an early (the original?) workrate match w/ Steamboat, an awesome selljob vs. Bret, an epic vs. Warrior, solid brawls w/ Tito & Steamboat, and was good enough in squashes.

        Piper

        Look- 3- For the iconic t-shirt & kilt. Even with that he has one of the weakest looks of any 80s WWF star. It's easy to see why he was as much a manager as wrestler in his early days.

        Promos-5.5- There's a huge dropoff between awesome pre-87 heel Piper & horrible face Piper from 87 on. Heel Piper gets a 9. Face Piper gets a 2. So 5.5 it is.

        In Ring- 5 (incomplete) I've actually been kind of impressed watching 80s heel Piper. He had an awesome for 80s WWF brawl with Orndorff on SNME(?), a fun Hogan match at the Garden, and an enjoyable "retirement" match vs. Adonis. But I haven't seen enough to rate him higher. Plus he doesn't have the greatest rep. And there's the awful Bad News Brown match to bring him back down to earth.

        Andre

        Look- 10- He looked like a big, ugly, stinky giant right out of a children's fairy tale, which was perfect for the lead heel in 80s WWF.

        Promo- 3- Hard to understand but gets a point for popularizing "Ho Kogan" and gets another point because having a poor grasp of the English language is not a terrible quality for an 80s WWF heel to have.

        In Ring- 1- Was practically immobile during this era AND almost all his stuff looked like crap while being extremely painful if the stories of old wrestlers are to be believed.

        Warrior

        Look- 10
        - The perfect look for an 80s babyface. Roided, facepainted, colorful, tassles(! watching a Shane Douglas WCW match the other day I realized all my babyfaces would be required to wear tassles if I were a promoter) and not even balding! It's easy to see why Vince pushed this guy to the moon.

        Promos- 5- I praised Hogan for occasionally being batshit insane, and Savage for always for being batshit insane, but Warrior often took it too far. There's a fine line, man. Warrior crossed it a little too frequently.

        In Ring- 4- This was tough. Warrior is a weird one. He often looked uncoordinated and even untrained. Yet I'd put his Top 6 or so matches up against just about anybody from this era- the Hogan epic, the Savage retirement match, the fun Honkytonk Man SNME match where Warrior carried Honk, the Rude matches, the Bodybag Match vs. Taker that might be my favorite pre-1996 Taker match. That's not a bad couple of matches for "one of the worst of all time."

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

          I'm grading these guys solely on their WWF Golden Age run (84-91) since that's what Kilgore mentioned in his opening post.

          Hogan

          Look- 9.5- In many ways the most iconic look of any wrestler in history. The 24 inch pythons....the red & yellow....a Hall of Fame 'stache. But I must join Emp & Icon in making a slight deduction for the receding hairline.

          Promo- 5- Not a fan of the standard Hogan promo but he can be spectacular when the coke is flowing especially strong and he's buying into his own "Immortal" hype. Wrestlemania IV & the build to Wrestlemania VI come to mind. The one where he pretty much straight up calls his own partner Brutus Beefcake a jobber for two minutes straight is another good example. Delusional batshit insane Hogan is the best Hogan.

          In Ring- 4- Not a fan of the standard Hogan formula match because it only benefits Hulk Hogan but Hogan/Warrior is the Flair/Steamboat of evenly matched roided up superhero epics and his antics in the Genius match were spectacular. Also did some good stuff with former NWA champs Race & Funk. And even his bad matches, of which there were many, felt big.


          Savage

          Look-8. Not huge by 80s WWF standards, and also balding, which actually worked in his favorite during his early heel 'wildman' days the same way it benefited the likes of Necro Butcher, Luke Harper & Buzz Sawyer, but was a negative when he was supposed to be a glamorous WWF babyface champ hanging & banging with Miss Elizabeth. Savage also made up for his lack of size (by 80s WWF standards) with style. His Wrestlemania IV wardrobe changes stand out as an all time great moment in wrestling fashion.

          Promo- 9 Reached batshit insane of levels of awesome far more often than Hogan. Likely due to a better coke supply.

          In Ring- 9- Came close to giving him a 10 here mainly due to the 80s WWF curve but in the end settled for a 9, which is still very high quality. Had an early (the original?) workrate match w/ Steamboat, an awesome selljob vs. Bret, an epic vs. Warrior, solid brawls w/ Tito & Steamboat, and was good enough in squashes.

          Piper

          Look- 3- For the iconic t-shirt & kilt. Even with that he has one of the weakest looks of any 80s WWF star. It's easy to see why he was as much a manager as wrestler in his early days.

          Promos-5.5- There's a huge dropoff between awesome pre-87 heel Piper & horrible face Piper from 87 on. Heel Piper gets a 9. Face Piper gets a 2. So 5.5 it is.

          In Ring- 5 (incomplete) I've actually been kind of impressed watching 80s heel Piper. He had an awesome for 80s WWF brawl with Orndorff on SNME(?), a fun Hogan match at the Garden, and an enjoyable "retirement" match vs. Adonis. But I haven't seen enough to rate him higher. Plus he doesn't have the greatest rep. And there's the awful Bad News Brown match to bring him back down to earth.

          Andre

          Look- 10- He looked like a big, ugly, stinky giant right out of a children's fairy tale, which was perfect for the lead heel in 80s WWF.

          Promo- 3- Hard to understand but gets a point for popularizing "Ho Kogan" and gets another point because having a poor grasp of the English language is not a terrible quality for an 80s WWF heel to have.

          In Ring- 1- Was practically immobile during this era AND almost all his stuff looked like crap while being extremely painful if the stories of old wrestlers are to be believed.

          Warrior

          Look- 10
          - The perfect look for an 80s babyface. Roided, facepainted, colorful, tassles(! watching a Shane Douglas WCW match the other day I realized all my babyfaces would be required to wear tassles if I were a promoter) and not even balding! It's easy to see why Vince pushed this guy to the moon.

          Promos- 5- I praised Hogan for occasionally being batshit insane, and Savage for always for being batshit insane, but Warrior often took it too far. There's a fine line, man. Warrior crossed it a little too frequently.

          In Ring- 4- This was tough. Warrior is a weird one. He often looked uncoordinated and even untrained. Yet I'd put his Top 6 or so matches up against just about anybody from this era- the Hogan epic, the Savage retirement match, the fun Honkytonk Man SNME match where Warrior carried Honk, the Rude matches, the Bodybag Match vs. Taker that might be my favorite pre-1996 Taker match. That's not a bad couple of matches for "one of the worst of all time."

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System


            Rock & Wrestling Average Scores:

            Randy Savage: 25.8
            Hulk Hogan: 24.2
            Ultimate Warrior: 20.1
            Roddy Piper: 19.3
            Andre the Giant: 15.2

            Well done, boys

            Next Batch: NWA Starrcade Era

            Ric Flair:
            Harley Race:
            Dusty Rhodes:
            Tully Blanchard:
            Magnum TA:
            Last edited by Kilgore; 05-17-2017, 07:02 PM. Reason: Updating Scores

            $

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System


              Rock & Wrestling Average Scores:

              Randy Savage: 25.8
              Hulk Hogan: 24.2
              Ultimate Warrior: 20.1
              Roddy Piper: 19.3
              Andre the Giant: 15.2

              Well done, boys

              Next Batch: NWA Starrcade Era

              Ric Flair:
              Harley Race:
              Dusty Rhodes:
              Tully Blanchard:
              Magnum TA:

              $

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                I'm gonna have to sit this one out.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                  I'm gonna have to sit this one out.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                    Originally posted by Emperor View Post
                    I'm gonna have to sit this one out.
                    If you could only do Flair, that's fine. I'll be out of the 80's soon enough.

                    $

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                      Originally posted by Emperor View Post
                      I'm gonna have to sit this one out.
                      If you could only do Flair, that's fine. I'll be out of the 80's soon enough.

                      $

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                        I'm glad to see this become a regular thing. I was hoping it would.

                        Ric Flair

                        Look- 7- Wasn't the most jacked guy in the world, and his wrestling attire was rather bland, but his iconic entrance robes & hair (at least until his bad haircut phase) give him a boost.

                        Promos- 10- One of the greatest. Extremely versatile on the mic.

                        In Ring- 10- The GOAT

                        Harley Race

                        Look- 3- His skinny fat guy physique is a 1 all the way but occasionally rocking one of the finest white guy afros in existence along with The Lemmy (still known as The Harley Race in my neck of the woods) gives him a boost. The shitty, homemade-looking sailor-style tattoos also work for an old school badass like Race.

                        Promos- 4 (incomplete)- A cop out. Haven't seen/don't remember much Race on the mic. My mental image of him is bland "I'm gonna kick yer butt" old school rasslin' promos delivered with a gruff voice. Of course I may be wrong.

                        In Ring- 8- I like Race in the ring. His methodical style works for me. Also had some cool moves for his era (an early suplex master!) along with a few neat signature bumps.

                        Dusty Rhodes

                        Look- 2- A fat guy who inexplicably didn't wrestle as a Fat Guy. And let's face it, he was also ugly. His face always seemed to look like he just got done fighting Tyson. Gets a 2 instead of a 1 because I liked his cowboy style wrestling boots.

                        Promos- 10- One of the greats.

                        In Ring- 4 (incomplete)- Haven't watched many Dusty matches over the past decade or so. Had one of Flair's weaker series' but I remember a solid outing with Lex and his match with Windham at Great American Bash '88 is a master class in doing a lot with a little.

                        Tully Blanchard

                        Look- 2- Extremely generic.

                        In Ring- 7- Wrestled like a heel. Was good in tags. Had a legendary brawl with Magnum. But lacked the pizzazz to rate higher. Didn't do much cool stuff outside of the Slingshot Suplex, which wasn't even THAT cool.

                        Promos- 6 (incomplete)- Remember him being an adequate heel promo but, again, it's been a long time.

                        Magnum TA

                        Look- 6
                        - It worked for that time and place.

                        Promos- 4 (incomplete)- Looks like 4 is my standard grade when I have no clue.

                        In Ring- 6- Good brawler with great babyface fire.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                          I'm glad to see this become a regular thing. I was hoping it would.

                          Ric Flair

                          Look- 7- Wasn't the most jacked guy in the world, and his wrestling attire was rather bland, but his iconic entrance robes & hair (at least until his bad haircut phase) give him a boost.

                          Promos- 10- One of the greatest. Extremely versatile on the mic.

                          In Ring- 10- The GOAT

                          Harley Race

                          Look- 3- His skinny fat guy physique is a 1 all the way but occasionally rocking one of the finest white guy afros in existence along with The Lemmy (still known as The Harley Race in my neck of the woods) gives him a boost. The shitty, homemade-looking sailor-style tattoos also work for an old school badass like Race.

                          Promos- 4 (incomplete)- A cop out. Haven't seen/don't remember much Race on the mic. My mental image of him is bland "I'm gonna kick yer butt" old school rasslin' promos delivered with a gruff voice. Of course I may be wrong.

                          In Ring- 8- I like Race in the ring. His methodical style works for me. Also had some cool moves for his era (an early suplex master!) along with a few neat signature bumps.

                          Dusty Rhodes

                          Look- 2- A fat guy who inexplicably didn't wrestle as a Fat Guy. And let's face it, he was also ugly. His face always seemed to look like he just got done fighting Tyson. Gets a 2 instead of a 1 because I liked his cowboy style wrestling boots.

                          Promos- 10- One of the greats.

                          In Ring- 4 (incomplete)- Haven't watched many Dusty matches over the past decade or so. Had one of Flair's weaker series' but I remember a solid outing with Lex and his match with Windham at Great American Bash '88 is a master class in doing a lot with a little.

                          Tully Blanchard

                          Look- 2- Extremely generic.

                          In Ring- 7- Wrestled like a heel. Was good in tags. Had a legendary brawl with Magnum. But lacked the pizzazz to rate higher. Didn't do much cool stuff outside of the Slingshot Suplex, which wasn't even THAT cool.

                          Promos- 6 (incomplete)- Remember him being an adequate heel promo but, again, it's been a long time.

                          Magnum TA

                          Look- 6
                          - It worked for that time and place.

                          Promos- 4 (incomplete)- Looks like 4 is my standard grade when I have no clue.

                          In Ring- 6- Good brawler with great babyface fire.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                            Ric Flair
                            Look - 8. On the surface didn't look that intimidating, but whenever he walked to the ring he looked like a million bucks.
                            Promo - 10. One of the greatest promos of all-time. There's a lot about Pro Wrestling I find embarrassing, but I can put a Flair promo on and know I'm going to be entertained.
                            In-Ring - 10. He was the best of his era. Took the championship style to another level and if you look at any best of compilation for any of the territories, Flair was usually somewhere on that leader board. The crazy thing is, we'll never quite understand just how great he was, given the nature of live events around that time.

                            Harley Race
                            Look - 8. Before the era of bodybuilders, Race had the real man's man look and was not the type of guy you'd want to mess with. A real champion and he didn't need a flashy robe to stand out.
                            Promo - 7. Could sell tickets with his promos without being larger than life. No fuss, no muss.
                            In-Ring - 9. Was a damn fine champion who like Flair could work with just about anybody and put on a great show. Always felt like he was a shade below Flair though, albeit that could be Meltzer's influence and how Flair ushered in a more animated style to his matches. Harley was old-school and didn't have many holes in his matches.

                            Dusty Rhodes
                            Look - 7. On one hand, being obese could be grounds for a 1/10, but Dusty's larger than life look suited his personality and enabled him to stand out.
                            Promo - 10. Dave recently made the comment that back in the day, Dusty had a much bigger female following than Roman Reigns does today and a large part of that comes down to his ability to cut a promo. Dusty was just a natural who could take a line from a song and somehow get the fans to buy a ticket just to watch him perform. Like Flair, I can just watch Dusty promos all-day, in fact I can just listen to the guy talk.
                            In-Ring - 7. Was more in that school of a Hulk Hogan than a Lou Thesz and the like, but Dusty knew how to put a match together to get his comeback across as something meaningful even when it was just a flurry of elbows.

                            Tully Blanchard
                            Look - 6. Looked like a wrestler, but didn't quite look like a champion or anything beyond his role.
                            Promo - 6. Again above average in the high octane era where everybody spoke in all caps but I've never been blown away by a Tully promo.
                            In-Ring - 9. Was where he really shined as one of the best heel workers of the 80s. Could put together a well orchestrated match and really put on a show, making him one of the best mid-card acts of all-time.

                            Magnum TA
                            Look - 8. The mullet and mo combo has aged as well as cheese, but you can't knock it for it's time period. Magnum was in tremendous shape and was that large than life babyface the NWA really needed with the WWF really warming up.
                            Promo - 7. Pretty good from what I saw of him. Babyface promos are a real tough business and while he had a similar all caps approach I think he did a good job of coming off as sympathetic and appealing to mass audiences.
                            In-Ring - 6. Showed potential before his career was ultimately cut short at 27. Never got a chance to stand out in that department, but showed enough that he at least understood the fundamentals of being a good babyface.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                              Ric Flair
                              Look - 8. On the surface didn't look that intimidating, but whenever he walked to the ring he looked like a million bucks.
                              Promo - 10. One of the greatest promos of all-time. There's a lot about Pro Wrestling I find embarrassing, but I can put a Flair promo on and know I'm going to be entertained.
                              In-Ring - 10. He was the best of his era. Took the championship style to another level and if you look at any best of compilation for any of the territories, Flair was usually somewhere on that leader board. The crazy thing is, we'll never quite understand just how great he was, given the nature of live events around that time.

                              Harley Race
                              Look - 8. Before the era of bodybuilders, Race had the real man's man look and was not the type of guy you'd want to mess with. A real champion and he didn't need a flashy robe to stand out.
                              Promo - 7. Could sell tickets with his promos without being larger than life. No fuss, no muss.
                              In-Ring - 9. Was a damn fine champion who like Flair could work with just about anybody and put on a great show. Always felt like he was a shade below Flair though, albeit that could be Meltzer's influence and how Flair ushered in a more animated style to his matches. Harley was old-school and didn't have many holes in his matches.

                              Dusty Rhodes
                              Look - 7. On one hand, being obese could be grounds for a 1/10, but Dusty's larger than life look suited his personality and enabled him to stand out.
                              Promo - 10. Dave recently made the comment that back in the day, Dusty had a much bigger female following than Roman Reigns does today and a large part of that comes down to his ability to cut a promo. Dusty was just a natural who could take a line from a song and somehow get the fans to buy a ticket just to watch him perform. Like Flair, I can just watch Dusty promos all-day, in fact I can just listen to the guy talk.
                              In-Ring - 7. Was more in that school of a Hulk Hogan than a Lou Thesz and the like, but Dusty knew how to put a match together to get his comeback across as something meaningful even when it was just a flurry of elbows.

                              Tully Blanchard
                              Look - 6. Looked like a wrestler, but didn't quite look like a champion or anything beyond his role.
                              Promo - 6. Again above average in the high octane era where everybody spoke in all caps but I've never been blown away by a Tully promo.
                              In-Ring - 9. Was where he really shined as one of the best heel workers of the 80s. Could put together a well orchestrated match and really put on a show, making him one of the best mid-card acts of all-time.

                              Magnum TA
                              Look - 8. The mullet and mo combo has aged as well as cheese, but you can't knock it for it's time period. Magnum was in tremendous shape and was that large than life babyface the NWA really needed with the WWF really warming up.
                              Promo - 7. Pretty good from what I saw of him. Babyface promos are a real tough business and while he had a similar all caps approach I think he did a good job of coming off as sympathetic and appealing to mass audiences.
                              In-Ring - 6. Showed potential before his career was ultimately cut short at 27. Never got a chance to stand out in that department, but showed enough that he at least understood the fundamentals of being a good babyface.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

                                Ric Flair- Total: 27

                                Look: 7.5- Gave him the edge over Savage because of his iconic hair, it was even parodied in Eastbound And Down by Will Ferrell.

                                Promo: 10- He and the Rock vie for the GOAT.

                                In-Ring: 9.5- Could brawl, wrestle clean technical exhibitions, and heel it up.

                                Harley Race- Total: 19

                                Look: 6- Just had that tough trucker look who could beat your ass at anytime.

                                Promo: 6- Had that gravely voice that was always threatening. Not as charismatic though as the true greats.

                                In-Ring: 8- Delibrate, added in with the suplexes he had the top rope head butt. A meat and potatoes proto Benoit?

                                Dusty Rhodes- Total: 20.5

                                Look: 3- This is tough because his look really related to the everyday person and was unique but I have to agree with Baker on most everything else.

                                Promo: 10- Another sure fire top 10 addition.

                                In-Ring: 7.5- Could really move for a big man, sold well, great crowd interaction, effective babyface comebacks. He checks all the boxes to get a passing grade.

                                Tully Blanchard- Total: 17

                                Look: 2- Caved in hairy chest, pale, ugh... could pull off the suit and glasses though.

                                Promo: 7.5- Not Flair level but I especially remember him having memorable promo's against Dusty during their National title feud ("stir the pot", "I could've beat him in 4-7 seconds", just seek out early 1986 WCW shows, many are on youtube)

                                In-Ring: 7.5 Liked the slingshot suplex, played the pest well as a set-up for Arn.

                                Magnum T.A.-Total: 21.5

                                Look: 8.5 Hey, any resemblance to Tom Selleck (and being relatively buff) is a huge plus in the 1980's.

                                Promo: 6.5 Had good intensity but stumbled over his words sometimes.

                                In-Ring: 6.5- Again great intensity and selling, needed a better finisher though.

                                Does anyboby remember the old Wrestling Analyst magazine? It did very much the same thing. I tossed all my issues out unfortunately. Unbelievably I can't find any images on google, maybe I have the title wrong?
                                Last edited by The Icon; 05-23-2017, 01:32 PM. Reason: Chrome is the answer to everything!

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