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Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

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  • Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

    I finished watching that Scott Hall documentary on the WWE network, very well done by the way, but anyways it got me thinking about his career as a whole and got me in the mood to see some of this guys work in the ring so obviously I start with the HBK ladder match at mania 10 and then...I honestly started blanking. I really couldn't think of a truly memorable Scott Hall match that didn't involve HBK or where the match was memorable just because of some huge swerve(the nwo formation at bash at the beach 96). It seemed like his WCW run in particular was pretty horrible from just a pure in ring action stand point but his singles run as Razor in WWE, I just can't think of one match(aside from the ladder match at mania 10, that truly stood out as being "great". So my question to you is, what are some solid Razor/Hall matches? Are there any? What were your thoughts on Hall's in ring work?

  • #2
    Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

    It all depends on what you mean by great. Scott Hall has always had the drawback of being 6'7" and about 280, he was fucking massive and in amazing shape most of his career. Here's the thing, he didn't move well. You see big guys like The Undertaker, Bam Bam (either one really Gordy or Bigelow), JBL and even Kane...they all move well. There is some fluidity to their movement...Hall didn't have that...ever. He was bigger than most of the guys in the AWA when he broke in, so all he used was power...plus, they rushed the hell out of him...pushing him almost to the top, Greg Gagne wanted him to be champ, but he didn't stick around. He had a decent match/feud when Brian Pillman was the Yellow Dog for a period.

    His big feud with 123 Kid went well enough. He made the Kid credible, while looking strong. After that, not so much. His development was stunted, plus he really got into other activities. He's better known as a character rather than a worker. I guess when he was motivated, he could do some good work, but motivation was not always that important to him after awhile. I think he got to a point in his skill level and went, "This is good enough." It was for most of his career. He was never the guy and then he became unreliable at best. He was always going to be near the top of the card...good, bad or otherwise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

      It all depends on what you mean by great. Scott Hall has always had the drawback of being 6'7" and about 280, he was fucking massive and in amazing shape most of his career. Here's the thing, he didn't move well. You see big guys like The Undertaker, Bam Bam (either one really Gordy or Bigelow), JBL and even Kane...they all move well. There is some fluidity to their movement...Hall didn't have that...ever. He was bigger than most of the guys in the AWA when he broke in, so all he used was power...plus, they rushed the hell out of him...pushing him almost to the top, Greg Gagne wanted him to be champ, but he didn't stick around. He had a decent match/feud when Brian Pillman was the Yellow Dog for a period.

      His big feud with 123 Kid went well enough. He made the Kid credible, while looking strong. After that, not so much. His development was stunted, plus he really got into other activities. He's better known as a character rather than a worker. I guess when he was motivated, he could do some good work, but motivation was not always that important to him after awhile. I think he got to a point in his skill level and went, "This is good enough." It was for most of his career. He was never the guy and then he became unreliable at best. He was always going to be near the top of the card...good, bad or otherwise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

        Hall was consistently solid, rarely great. I've always found it funny that Hall has the better reputation as a worker, but Nash probably has more "great" matches (not that Nash has many himself, obviously), but that's because Hall's basement was higher, and he'd rarely have a bad match, as Nash was known to do in between his rare quality ones. Pre-workrate era, Hall would have good matches week to week. He was consistent as hell, and that's where his reputation was made. Like a match against Rick Martel on Raw is far from great, but that was one of the better TV matches you'd see on WWF television in those days. Hall also had great skill in something that is almost non existent now, and that was the art of a squash match, which was like 85% of TV when he was coming up.

        $

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

          Hall was consistently solid, rarely great. I've always found it funny that Hall has the better reputation as a worker, but Nash probably has more "great" matches (not that Nash has many himself, obviously), but that's because Hall's basement was higher, and he'd rarely have a bad match, as Nash was known to do in between his rare quality ones. Pre-workrate era, Hall would have good matches week to week. He was consistent as hell, and that's where his reputation was made. Like a match against Rick Martel on Raw is far from great, but that was one of the better TV matches you'd see on WWF television in those days. Hall also had great skill in something that is almost non existent now, and that was the art of a squash match, which was like 85% of TV when he was coming up.

          $

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

            Originally posted by CK View Post
            It all depends on what you mean by great. Scott Hall has always had the drawback of being 6'7" and about 280, he was fucking massive and in amazing shape most of his career. Here's the thing, he didn't move well. You see big guys like The Undertaker, Bam Bam (either one really Gordy or Bigelow), JBL and even Kane...they all move well. There is some fluidity to their movement...Hall didn't have that...ever. He was bigger than most of the guys in the AWA when he broke in, so all he used was power...plus, they rushed the hell out of him...pushing him almost to the top, Greg Gagne wanted him to be champ, but he didn't stick around. He had a decent match/feud when Brian Pillman was the Yellow Dog for a period.

            His big feud with 123 Kid went well enough. He made the Kid credible, while looking strong. After that, not so much. His development was stunted, plus he really got into other activities. He's better known as a character rather than a worker. I guess when he was motivated, he could do some good work, but motivation was not always that important to him after awhile. I think he got to a point in his skill level and went, "This is good enough." It was for most of his career. He was never the guy and then he became unreliable at best. He was always going to be near the top of the card...good, bad or otherwise.
            I did like the feud with 123 and I remember the diaper match was some what entertaining. It's just strange for such a big name in the industry he had such little good material in the ring. I mean even guys like Hogan who were more style over substance in the ring had some truly classic entertaining wrestling matches. Kevin Nash had a hell of a little streak going before he left WWE with some good showings against Bret at survivor series 95, HBK, and taker at mania 12. Fuck, Even Goldberg has had more great matches.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

              Originally posted by CK View Post
              It all depends on what you mean by great. Scott Hall has always had the drawback of being 6'7" and about 280, he was fucking massive and in amazing shape most of his career. Here's the thing, he didn't move well. You see big guys like The Undertaker, Bam Bam (either one really Gordy or Bigelow), JBL and even Kane...they all move well. There is some fluidity to their movement...Hall didn't have that...ever. He was bigger than most of the guys in the AWA when he broke in, so all he used was power...plus, they rushed the hell out of him...pushing him almost to the top, Greg Gagne wanted him to be champ, but he didn't stick around. He had a decent match/feud when Brian Pillman was the Yellow Dog for a period.

              His big feud with 123 Kid went well enough. He made the Kid credible, while looking strong. After that, not so much. His development was stunted, plus he really got into other activities. He's better known as a character rather than a worker. I guess when he was motivated, he could do some good work, but motivation was not always that important to him after awhile. I think he got to a point in his skill level and went, "This is good enough." It was for most of his career. He was never the guy and then he became unreliable at best. He was always going to be near the top of the card...good, bad or otherwise.
              I did like the feud with 123 and I remember the diaper match was some what entertaining. It's just strange for such a big name in the industry he had such little good material in the ring. I mean even guys like Hogan who were more style over substance in the ring had some truly classic entertaining wrestling matches. Kevin Nash had a hell of a little streak going before he left WWE with some good showings against Bret at survivor series 95, HBK, and taker at mania 12. Fuck, Even Goldberg has had more great matches.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                Originally posted by CK
                It all depends on what you mean by great. Scott Hall has always had the drawback of being 6'7" and about 280, he was fucking massive and in amazing shape most of his career. Here's the thing, he didn't move well. You see big guys like The Undertaker, Bam Bam (either one really Gordy or Bigelow), JBL and even Kane...they all move well. There is some fluidity to their movement...Hall didn't have that...ever. He was bigger than most of the guys in the AWA when he broke in, so all he used was power...plus, they rushed the hell out of him...pushing him almost to the top, Greg Gagne wanted him to be champ, but he didn't stick around. He had a decent match/feud when Brian Pillman was the Yellow Dog for a period.

                His big feud with 123 Kid went well enough. He made the Kid credible, while looking strong. After that, not so much. His development was stunted, plus he really got into other activities. He's better known as a character rather than a worker. I guess when he was motivated, he could do some good work, but motivation was not always that important to him after awhile. I think he got to a point in his skill level and went, "This is good enough." It was for most of his career. He was never the guy and then he became unreliable at best. He was always going to be near the top of the card...good, bad or otherwise.
                This seems quite accurate. Many probably remember Hall more for the character of Razor Ramon than his work. And I guess the HOF induction a few yrs ago is a testament to that.


                Originally posted by Kilgore
                Hall was consistently solid, rarely great. I've always found it funny that Hall has the better reputation as a worker, but Nash probably has more "great" matches (not that Nash has many himself, obviously), but that's because Hall's basement was higher, and he'd rarely have a bad match, as Nash was known to do in between his rare quality ones. Pre-workrate era, Hall would have good matches week to week. He was consistent as hell, and that's where his reputation was made. Like a match against Rick Martel on Raw is far from great, but that was one of the better TV matches you'd see on WWF television in those days. Hall also had great skill in something that is almost non existent now, and that was the art of a squash match, which was like 85% of TV when he was coming up.
                Watched it a few wks ago and yeah it was pretty solid. You're right. There was a lot of filler/squash matches back then so a good match on free TV was a gem.

                Originally posted by vendrell
                I did like the feud with 123 and I remember the diaper match was some what entertaining. It's just strange for such a big name in the industry he had such little good material in the ring. I mean even guys like Hogan who were more style over substance in the ring had some truly classic entertaining wrestling matches. Kevin Nash had a hell of a little streak going before he left WWE with some good showings against Bret at survivor series 95, HBK, and taker at mania 12. Fuck, Even Goldberg has had more great matches.
                You may partly chalk that up to the quality of his opponents. Plus, lack of time away for substance abuse issues.
                First set of inductees for Titans: Bret Hart, Randy Savage, Shawn Michaels, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and The Undertaker

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                  Originally posted by CK
                  It all depends on what you mean by great. Scott Hall has always had the drawback of being 6'7" and about 280, he was fucking massive and in amazing shape most of his career. Here's the thing, he didn't move well. You see big guys like The Undertaker, Bam Bam (either one really Gordy or Bigelow), JBL and even Kane...they all move well. There is some fluidity to their movement...Hall didn't have that...ever. He was bigger than most of the guys in the AWA when he broke in, so all he used was power...plus, they rushed the hell out of him...pushing him almost to the top, Greg Gagne wanted him to be champ, but he didn't stick around. He had a decent match/feud when Brian Pillman was the Yellow Dog for a period.

                  His big feud with 123 Kid went well enough. He made the Kid credible, while looking strong. After that, not so much. His development was stunted, plus he really got into other activities. He's better known as a character rather than a worker. I guess when he was motivated, he could do some good work, but motivation was not always that important to him after awhile. I think he got to a point in his skill level and went, "This is good enough." It was for most of his career. He was never the guy and then he became unreliable at best. He was always going to be near the top of the card...good, bad or otherwise.
                  This seems quite accurate. Many probably remember Hall more for the character of Razor Ramon than his work. And I guess the HOF induction a few yrs ago is a testament to that.


                  Originally posted by Kilgore
                  Hall was consistently solid, rarely great. I've always found it funny that Hall has the better reputation as a worker, but Nash probably has more "great" matches (not that Nash has many himself, obviously), but that's because Hall's basement was higher, and he'd rarely have a bad match, as Nash was known to do in between his rare quality ones. Pre-workrate era, Hall would have good matches week to week. He was consistent as hell, and that's where his reputation was made. Like a match against Rick Martel on Raw is far from great, but that was one of the better TV matches you'd see on WWF television in those days. Hall also had great skill in something that is almost non existent now, and that was the art of a squash match, which was like 85% of TV when he was coming up.
                  Watched it a few wks ago and yeah it was pretty solid. You're right. There was a lot of filler/squash matches back then so a good match on free TV was a gem.

                  Originally posted by vendrell
                  I did like the feud with 123 and I remember the diaper match was some what entertaining. It's just strange for such a big name in the industry he had such little good material in the ring. I mean even guys like Hogan who were more style over substance in the ring had some truly classic entertaining wrestling matches. Kevin Nash had a hell of a little streak going before he left WWE with some good showings against Bret at survivor series 95, HBK, and taker at mania 12. Fuck, Even Goldberg has had more great matches.
                  You may partly chalk that up to the quality of his opponents. Plus, lack of time away for substance abuse issues.
                  First set of inductees for Titans: Bret Hart, Randy Savage, Shawn Michaels, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and The Undertaker

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                    I've always said that I'm surprised that Scott Hall didn't get to win the WCW Championship at some point. The WCW Championship ended up being passed around so frequently and Hall had some pull backstage. I definitely think they could have created a storyline and had Hall win the WCW Championship at some point. There were far worse people that became champ...

                    I know that doesn't answer the thread. I was going to point to some of the obvious matches he had with HBK, but I read in your thread you say "matches that DIDN'T have HBK"....I can't really think of any awesome matches he had in WCW. Some of the other people have mentioned that he was a good worker, but he wasn't great. This sounds pretty accurate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                      I've always said that I'm surprised that Scott Hall didn't get to win the WCW Championship at some point. The WCW Championship ended up being passed around so frequently and Hall had some pull backstage. I definitely think they could have created a storyline and had Hall win the WCW Championship at some point. There were far worse people that became champ...

                      I know that doesn't answer the thread. I was going to point to some of the obvious matches he had with HBK, but I read in your thread you say "matches that DIDN'T have HBK"....I can't really think of any awesome matches he had in WCW. Some of the other people have mentioned that he was a good worker, but he wasn't great. This sounds pretty accurate.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                        Not a five star match or anything but I always liked Razor vs Bret from Rumble 93, also the Outsiders had a really good tv tag match on Nitro in the Summer of 97, I can't remember who it was against, I think Luger & DDP or Luger & Sting. Edit: couldn't have been Sting since he didn't wrestle at all in 97 until Starrcade. I know it was Luger and somebody else vs The Outsiders, really good match for a Nitro main event.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                          Not a five star match or anything but I always liked Razor vs Bret from Rumble 93, also the Outsiders had a really good tv tag match on Nitro in the Summer of 97, I can't remember who it was against, I think Luger & DDP or Luger & Sting. Edit: couldn't have been Sting since he didn't wrestle at all in 97 until Starrcade. I know it was Luger and somebody else vs The Outsiders, really good match for a Nitro main event.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                            Originally posted by Kilgore View Post
                            Hall was consistently solid, rarely great. Hall also had great skill in something that is almost non existent now, and that was the art of a squash match, which was like 85% of TV when he was coming up.
                            This.

                            The best Hall matches are obviously the Michaels ladder bouts.
                            Razor & Kid vs. Michaels & Diesel (Michaels again!) from Action Zone gets a lot of love.

                            My favorite non-Michaels Hall matches are probably a few of his bouts with the 1-2-3 Kid. They were solid story-based matches. Remember the Razor/Kid rematch from Kid upsetting Razor & Ramon putting money on the line being fun and their '95 Raw match with Kid about to turn heel was even better.

                            He had a bunch of solid matches with Bret (though a step down from the usual Bret ppv match imo), Model, Jarrett & Diesel.

                            How were the Dibiase, Owen, Bam Bam & Vader ppv matches? Don't remember them all that much. What about Razor & Flair vs. Perfect & Savage from Survivor Series '92?

                            Trying to find my Razor/Borga writeup in the old Match Review thread. Iirc it was solid up until the booking kicked in.

                            WWF Razor was the like the king of the **1/2-*** match but rarely went beyond that.
                            Last edited by Baker; 05-09-2017, 12:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall great matches...were there any?

                              Originally posted by Kilgore View Post
                              Hall was consistently solid, rarely great. Hall also had great skill in something that is almost non existent now, and that was the art of a squash match, which was like 85% of TV when he was coming up.
                              This.

                              The best Hall matches are obviously the Michaels ladder bouts.
                              Razor & Kid vs. Michaels & Diesel (Michaels again!) from Action Zone gets a lot of love.

                              My favorite non-Michaels Hall matches are probably a few of his bouts with the 1-2-3 Kid. They were solid story-based matches. Remember the Razor/Kid rematch from Kid upsetting Razor & Ramon putting money on the line being fun and their '95 Raw match with Kid about to turn heel was even better.

                              He had a bunch of solid matches with Bret (though a step down from the usual Bret ppv match imo), Model, Jarrett & Diesel.

                              How were the Dibiase, Owen, Bam Bam & Vader ppv matches? Don't remember them all that much. What about Razor & Flair vs. Perfect & Savage from Survivor Series '92?

                              Trying to find my Razor/Borga writeup in the old Match Review thread. Iirc it was solid up until the booking kicked in.

                              WWF Razor was the like the king of the **1/2-*** match but rarely went beyond that.

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