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Thread: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

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    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Talking Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If the Sonics get another scoring option, specifically for the SG spot, Durant gets moved to Small Forward and the other team scores whenever the fuck they want.
    Well then if Durant wants to be a true all-round superstar, he'd better work on developing his defensive skills to then, shouldn't he?

  2. #2
    Tommy
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    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    That is a stupid claim to make.

    Durant does what he is expected to do, and that is score. He will never be a great all-round superstar because he just doesn't have the ability to play great defense. Look at Nash. All the offensive ability but the defense of a new born baby. There are only a few players who become all-round stars. Durant will never be one of them.

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    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Talking Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    That is a stupid claim to make.

    Durant does what he is expected to do, and that is score. He will never be a great all-round superstar because he just doesn't have the ability to play great defense. Look at Nash. All the offensive ability but the defense of a new born baby. There are only a few players who become all-round stars. Durant will never be one of them.
    It's not a stupid claim at all IMO.

    If Durant (or any other player) wants to improve their defensive skills, and has the desire and puts in the effort, they can do it. Whether it actually does happen is another matter entirely, and admittedly not that many players with Durant's offensive skills really bother, but it's always possible. Durant is still young, so he still has much more time to grow and develop. Nash is much older, and it's probably a lot more difficult for him to change his game and incorperate tougher defensive play, especially when he's had coaches like Mike D'Antoni and Don Nelson for the majority of his career, both of whom are known to pretty much not give a shit about defense anyway. Despite the Sonics not being a great defensive team last season, P.J. Carlisemo is known for being a good defensive coach, so I'm sure he can help Durant work on that area of his game. He'll might even challenge and/or expect Durant to show him something more in this area. As well as this, Durant will probably add a lot of muscle to his skinny frame over the next couple of years, which will help him a lot on the defensive end.

    I mean, it's not like Kobe Bryant just walked into the league as a great defensive player. He had to work on it, and eventually he's become a 6-time All Defensive 1st Teamer. I'm not saying Durant is going to get to Kobe's level, but it's not totally out of the question that he can improve his defense a little bit, if he really wants to.
    Last edited by Damon; 05-28-2008 at 02:40 AM.

  4. #4
    Tommy
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    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It's not a stupid claim at all IMO.
    It is a stupid claim. Durant won't become a good defensive player. He doesn't have the build or knowledge. He has length but the guy is a toothpick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    If Durant (or any other player) wants to improve their defensive skills, and has the desire and puts in the effort, they can do it.
    I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but this is the NBA. It doesn't matter how much effort people put in, there are some things which they just can't do. It's a sport which people really are 'made' to perform certain aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Whether it actually does happen is another matter entirely, but it's always possible.
    It isn't always possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Durant is still young, so he doesn't have to get set into one style of play at that's it.
    Durant just doesn't have the mindset of a defensive player. He is an offensive minded player and as such he should focus on being an offensive minded player. He has the ability to score from almost anywhere on the court, he should be focusing on that dimension of his game as that is what he was drafted for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Nash is much older, and it's probably a lot more difficult for him to change his game, especially when the Suns' style doesn't promote strong defensive play anyway.
    Nash doesn't have the ability to play solid defense because he isn't made for it. He has trouble sticking with his man and his pressure is minimal. His size doesn't help much either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Despite not being a great defensive team last season, the Sonics coach, PJ Carlisemo, is known for being a good defensive coach, so I'm sure he can help Durant work on that area of his game.
    It doesn't matter how good your coach is, players have their limitations and Durant's is his defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    He'll might even challenge and/or expect Durant to show him something more in this area. As well as this, Durant will probably add a lot of muscle to his skinny frame over the next couple of years, which will help him a lot on the defensive end.
    Durant won't be able to bulk up a great deal. Once again his body is his body. He may be able to add a small bit of definition, but he won't be able to bulk up like young players like LeBron can. If he was going to add some weight it would be to help his offense, not for his defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I mean, it's not like Kobe Bryant just walked into the league as a great defensive player. He had to work on it, and eventually he's become a 6-time All Defensive 1st Teamer. I'm not saying Durant is going to get to Kobe's level, but it's not totally out of the question that he can improve his defense a little bit, if he really wants to.
    Kobe had potential. He had a good figure and a good knowledge of the game. Kobe was born to play ball.

    So now we've changed it so he he is only slightly improving defense? So much for

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well then if Durant wants to be a true all-round superstar, he'd better work on developing his defensive skills to then, shouldn't he?

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    The G.O.A.T Pinchsta's Avatar

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    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    I really want to know where Tommy bought his time machine.

    there have been plenty of players who defied bigger odds to accomplish a certain goal that people didnt think they could than Durant. just take Bruce Bowen for example. he's nowhere near Durant in terms of athletic ability or size but he eventually learned to become a defensive specialist and he has never had elite size, strength, or "born" skill. now, im not saying Durant will reach Bowen's level of defensive prowess but it's not a stupid claim to say Durant could one day improve his overall game.

    "toothpicks" have been known to be good defenders too, you know. Kevin Garnett? Jordan when he first came into the league was pretty scrawny himself and he eventually became a 1st team nba defensive staple. doesnt mean you will ALWAYS stay the way you are, especially since Durant just finished his rookie season.

  6. #6
    Tommy
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    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Bowen had the ability to move and stick with his man. As David Lee has demonstrated throughout his career, it is something that cannot be learnt. Bowen wasn't an offensive player to begin with, his focus was on defense. Bad example.

    Durant won't be able to bulk up a great deal, he will get definition, it's harder for him to bulk up as his body is out of proportion and he hasn't done weights.

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    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Talking Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    I've played basketball myself for 14 years. You get out what you put in. If you put in enough effort to improve something, then you will reap the rewards. Especially seeing as playing basketball is the job on NBA players, then they can focus on it a lot more than someone like me can, who is nowhere near ever reaching that level.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    So now we've changed it so he he is only slightly improving defense? So much for
    I didn't really backtrack on my comments about Durant. I just said if he wants to become an all-round superstar, he has to improve his defense. He might not become an all-round superstar (I really don't know), so he may/should/could/whatever improve his defense a bit/a lot/whatever. Again, I really don't know, and neither do you. It's just not impossible that Durant can improve his defense somewhat. He might just say "Ah, fuck it", and always be at the same level defensively. But he might just choose to work on his weaknesses, and become a better all-round player. It does happen, you know, and it is certainly very possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Kobe had potential. He had a good figure and a good knowledge of the game. Kobe was born to play ball.
    Durant has plenty of potential as well. With his length and atleticism, he could easily become a good shot blocker if he wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Bowen had the ability to move and stick with his man. As David Lee has demonstrated throughout his career, it is something that cannot be learnt. Bowen wasn't an offensive player to begin with, his focus was on defense. Bad example.
    It's a good example IMO. Bowen was pretty average all round, so to make sure he could stay in the league, he chose to work on his defense, and has been rewarded for it with big roles on championship teams. He also worked on his three point shot, and is also rewarded by hitting with a good percentage for the last few years.

    I really don't know why David Lee is expected to play that role anyway. He's a 6'9", 245lb PF as far as I can tell, so he shouldn't have to play that role. It seems like a bit more of an issue with Lee's lateral quickness anyway, which is a bit harder to develop than that particular kind of defensive ability. But if you mean he can't defend in the post, then he just needs to think about it more, figure out what he's doing wrong, and adjust accordingly. If he has any semblance of quickness and endurance, as well as the actual desire to do so, he should be able to stick with someone. There's not that much chasing around in the post anyway (as opposed to defending, say, Rip Hamilton), so he should be able to develop something decent there, surely.

    Durant, Kobe, Bowen et all. are all longer and/or athletic SF/SG types, so their game should involve this, and Durant should be able to develop this ability if he works hard enough at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Durant won't be able to bulk up a great deal, he will get definition, it's harder for him to bulk up as his body is out of proportion and he hasn't done weights.
    Even if he doesn't gain size and bulk, he will still gain strength, endurance and other athletic abilities from lifting weights and doing conditioning work.

    Players develop their weaknesses. It happens all the time. Again, I'm not comparing the two, but Jordan wasn't much of an outside shooter earlier in his career. He recognised that this needed to be added to his arsenal of skills, and eventually his jump shot became as deadly as any other part of his game. As well as this, he eventually worked hard enough to become one of the great defensive players ever as well.

    If Jordan didn't develop his jump shot, or if he defended enough just to get by, waiting for his turn with the ball again, then he wouldn't be regarded as such a legendary all-round player. you'd know that that'd be one of people's first knocks on him in any argument of who the best ever is.

    But then again, maybe that great jumpshot and great defensive ability just magically appeared because he was "born to play basketball"

    Basically, I think it's pretty silly to say that with the length and athleticism that Durant has, not to mention being only 19, that he should just be content with being a one-dimentional scorer the rest of his career.

  8. #8
    Tommy
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    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I've played basketball myself for 14 years. You get out what you put in. If you put in enough effort to improve something, then you will reap the rewards. Especially seeing as playing basketball is the job on NBA players, then they can focus on it a lot more than someone like me can, who is nowhere near ever reaching that level.
    I played representative basketball.

    And ofcourse practicing at the level you play at will improve the way you play, you aren't against the best players on the planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I didn't really backtrack on my comments about Durant. I just said if he wants to become an all-round superstar, he has to improve his defense. He might not become an all-round superstar (I really don't know), so he may/should/could/whatever improve his defense a bit/a lot/whatever.
    Look at the words. ALL-ROUND. I'm pretty sure that says a whole lot more than just improving a 'little bit'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Again, I really don't know, and neither do you. It's just not impossible that Durant can improve his defense somewhat. He might just say "Ah, fuck it", and always be at the same level defensively. But he might just choose to work on his weaknesses, and become a better all-round player. It does happen, you know, and it is certainly very possible.
    The only thing Durant has going for him on defense is his freakishly long arms. He's awareness is poor and he doesn't know what is going on. The only way he could really improve his defense would be if he worked on flopping, he has the frame to get a lot of calls using that dirty method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Durant has plenty of potential as well. With his length and atleticism, he could easily become a good shot blocker if he wanted to.
    Blocking shots is about timing. Not about how tall you are or how great of a jumper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It's a good example IMO. Bowen was pretty average all round, so to make sure he could stay in the league, he chose to work on his defense, and has been rewarded for it with big roles on championship teams. He also worked on his three point shot, and is also rewarded by hitting with a good percentage for the last few years.
    Bowen is not and hasn't been an average all round player, his offense was never flashy, and the guy is abysmal on the free throw line. Bowen got where he is by working hard on the things he was good at and that was defense. There's a reason you usually only see him shoot from the corners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I really don't know why David Lee is expected to play that role anyway. He's a 6'9", 245lb PF as far as I can tell, so he shouldn't have to play that role.
    If you're going to play between PF/C you need to be able to move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It seems like a bit more of an issue with Lee's lateral quickness anyway, which is a bit harder to develop than that particular kind of defensive ability.
    I was referring to his lateral movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    But if you mean he can't defend in the post, then he just needs to think about it more, figure out what he's doing wrong, and adjust accordingly.
    He can't defend in the post, (nobody can in New York anyway because there is no rotation on defense), because people just walk into the key. They get past him to easily which is attributed to his movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    If he has any semblance of quickness and endurance, as well as the actual desire to do so, he should be able to stick with someone. There's not that much chasing around in the post anyway (as opposed to defending, say, Rip Hamilton), so he should be able to develop something decent there, surely.
    You obviously don't see the amount of effort and energy Lee uses doing the dirty work on a team where players don't bother with it. It's not easy to stick with your man all the time, Nash is a fast bastard but he loses his man a lot. What hope does Lee have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Durant, Kobe, Bowen et all. are all longer and/or athletic SF/SG types, so their game should involve this, and Durant should be able to develop this ability if he works hard enough at it.
    Durant is a college SG/SF. In the NBA his frame would get him killed playing SF, which is exactly the reason why they're playing him at SG...

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Even if he doesn't gain size and bulk, he will still gain strength, endurance and other athletic abilities from lifting weights and doing conditioning work.
    Durant's 'strength' would be useless. He'd simply be mauled. And the though of Durant lifting weights is funny. His conditioning is not in question, his size is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Players develop their weaknesses. It happens all the time. Again, I'm not comparing the two, but Jordan wasn't much of an outside shooter earlier in his career. He recognised that this needed to be added to his arsenal of skills, and eventually his jump shot became as deadly as any other part of his game. As well as this, he eventually worked hard enough to become one of the great defensive players ever as well.

    If Jordan didn't develop his jump shot, or if he defended enough just to get by, waiting for his turn with the ball again, then he wouldn't be regarded as such a legendary all-round player. you'd know that that'd be one of people's first knocks on him in any argument of who the best ever is.
    Word of advice.

    NEVER. EVER. Use Jordan as an example. It doesn't matter if you're comparing him or not. You never use the best player of a game to try to talk about how players can improve.

    And Jordan practically always had an idea of what was going on on defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    But then again, maybe that great jumpshot and great defensive ability just magically appeared because he was "born to play basketball"
    You can't fully teach basketball IQ, game judgement calls and the ability to jump over a car. Jordan had all of the skills. He simply needed to refine them. Durant has offensive skills, he doesn't know what the fuck to do on defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Basically, I think it's pretty silly to say that with the length and athleticism that Durant has, not to mention being only 19, that he should just be content with being a one-dimentional scorer the rest of his career.
    There is no way he will become a stand-out, let alone notable defender in his career. He just simply isn't made for it, especially if you're going to play him at SF.

  9. #9
    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Talking Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    I played representative basketball.

    And ofcourse practicing at the level you play at will improve the way you play, you aren't against the best players on the planet.
    So if you come into the NBA without a certain level of ability at one aspect of the game, you're never going to improve it? Right

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Look at the words. ALL-ROUND. I'm pretty sure that says a whole lot more than just improving a 'little bit'.
    A bit, a lot, who cares? You're taking what I said too literally. I'll explain it better exactly how I mean it:

    If Kevin Durant wants to be closer to an all-round good player, instead of just a one dimentional player, he'd have to improve his defensive skills. That's obvious. Whether he will or not is another matter. I think it's possible. You think it's totally impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    The only thing Durant has going for him on defense is his freakishly long arms. He's awareness is poor and he doesn't know what is going on. The only way he could really improve his defense would be if he worked on flopping, he has the frame to get a lot of calls using that dirty method.
    I'm not saying he'll ever be as good as him, but Tayshaun Prince has a similar build (not exact, so don't take it too literally) to Durant, and he does more than just flop on defense. Oh but maybe he already knew everything and had his basic defensive skill set before he got to the NBA, and hasn't worked on becoming a great defender since he got to the Pistons

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Blocking shots is about timing. Not about how tall you are or how great of a jumper.
    Nah, jumping ability and height never helped anyone block shots

    I'm not saying it's the be-al, end-all, just that his athletic base and height/length will make it easier for him than if he wasn't long or athletic. Timing is still the key, and he'll have to learn that. I think he can if he works hard enough. You think he has no hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Bowen is not and hasn't been an average all round player, his offense was never flashy, and the guy is abysmal on the free throw line. Bowen got where he is by working hard on the things he was good at and that was defense. There's a reason you usually only see him shoot from the corners...
    Apologies, I usually just use the word "average" in that context similarly to the way most people use "nothing special" and those kind of things. So there was a bit of a miscommunication.

    Anyway, I still don't think it's out of the question for anyone to commit to working on a weakness. I think Bowen must have done that, even if it was just shooting from the corners, because he's good at that. Unless he always just had that gift

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you're going to play between PF/C you need to be able to move.
    I know, I play those positions when I play basketball. I always have. I'm only 6'5", 200lbs, and decently athletic, so I'm obviously not as incumbered by size or a lack of athleticism, but my size compared to others around me over the years has been what has put me in those positions. But so that I could be more versatile, I worked on weaknesses, some that weren't related to my position (specifically ball-handling) that allow me to become a better and more versatle player. Durant can obviously work on defense too, if he chooses. So can Lee.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    I was referring to his lateral movement.
    Well good, we agree on something

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    He can't defend in the post, (nobody can in New York anyway because there is no rotation on defense), because people just walk into the key. They get past him to easily which is attributed to his movement.
    Well he has to adress that with better awareness and footwork then. While athleticism is a big help, footwork, awareness and persistent effort are the keys to defense. Lee can address those areas if he wants to. Whether he will is another matter. I remain optimistic that it's posible. You obviously don't

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You obviously don't see the amount of effort and energy Lee uses doing the dirty work on a team where players don't bother with it. It's not easy to stick with your man all the time, Nash is a fast bastard but he loses his man a lot. What hope does Lee have?
    I do see (and respect) the effort Lee puts in to doing the dirty work. I try to play with high work ethic, and try to play the best defense I can always, and it has pissed me off a number of times over the years when others I've played with haven't done that.

    I think Nash just hasn't worked hard enough on his defensive skills to be a good defensive player. Athleticism is handy on defense, but it only gets you so far. If you just looked at the numbers, Tracy McGrady was a pretty good shot blocker for his size and position in his early years in the NBA, as well as getting a fair number of steals. But over the years, his numbers in those categories have dwindled, and he's not really considered to be a good defensive player. That could have been because he had to take on more offensive responsibility, and that's fair. Players can only do so much. I know when I play, and I go out there 150% to defense, sometimes I feel a bit tired on the offensive end. But these are pro basketball players, who's job is to play basketball. Their life revolves around the game. They can learn to adapt and change and develop their games to improve in certain areas. Some are probably too set in their ways and content to continue playing their own style to do anything to change, such as Nash or McGrady. Durant might be like this as well. If he is, it's a shame, because being so young, he has the potential to grow in all areas of the game, so long as he's commited to working at it. Defense is hard work. A lot of people aren't willing to do hard work. But if they are in basketball, they can reap the rewards of becoming better players.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Durant is a college SG/SF. In the NBA his frame would get him killed playing SF, which is exactly the reason why they're playing him at SG...
    Tayshaun Prince's skinny frame serves him just fine defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Durant's 'strength' would be useless. He'd simply be mauled. And the though of Durant lifting weights is funny. His conditioning is not in question, his size is.
    Again, using Tayshaun Prince as a loose example, he does just fine. You seem to think that every NBA player should just stick to their initial rookie skillset, and not try and expand much from there. Durant has potential to become better at all aspects of the game, so long as he wants to. So does everyone. Obviously some people are more advanced than others at different aspects as Rookies, and others are limited by things such as athleticism and the like, and that's fine. It doesn't mean they should just give up on working on their weaknesses, and just be content with being one-dimensional.

    Word of advice.

    NEVER. EVER. Use Jordan as an example. It doesn't matter if you're comparing him or not. You never use the best player of a game to try to talk about how players can improve.

    And Jordan practically always had an idea of what was going on on defense.
    Well it's easier and less subjective to use Jordan as the benchmark, because that's what he is, the ultimate goal and what I'm sure pretty much every young basketball player dreams of being. There may never be anyone as good as Jordan, but it still doesn't mean people should just give up trying to improve aspects of their game that are poor at this point. If everyone went into the NBA thinking "Oh, I'm not a good defensive player" or "Oh, I'm not as good as Jordan", and just gave up because of it, then we'd have no NBA. People are able and are willing to improve. I don't know if Durant is willing, but I think it's possible that he can. Not to Jordan's standard, but he can improve. You obviously don't think this is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You can't fully teach basketball IQ, game judgement calls and the ability to jump over a car. Jordan had all of the skills. He simply needed to refine them. Durant has offensive skills, he doesn't know what the fuck to do on defense.
    Doesn't mean he shouldn't try to improve. That's what seperates good players from great players, and great players from legends - the willingness to work on getting better. Jordan wasn't a surefire Hall of Famer right off the bat. Him and Ron Harper weren't that different coming out of college as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong). Jordan was fortunate not to have the injuries Harper had, as well has having the willingness and desire to get better, and become the best he could be. He could have just coasted on athleticism, and not worked that hard to improve his jump shot or defense. But he didn't. He worked as hard as he could, and reaped the benefits. I don't know if Durant is willing to work, because I don't know him personally. All I'm saying is that it's within the realm of possibility that he (or any other player who has defensive deficiencies) can improve on defense. You are obviously more pecemistic on this topic than I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    There is no way he will become a stand-out, let alone notable defender in his career. He just simply isn't made for it, especially if you're going to play him at SF.
    I'm not saying Durant definitely will become a great defensive player. I just think it's totally stupid to think that he should not try to improve, just because he's not good at it now.

  10. #10
    Tommy
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    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    So if you come into the NBA without a certain level of ability at one aspect of the game, you're never going to improve it? Right
    If you're a one dimensional player like Durant is, even if you put a great degree of effort into improving a different skill you aren't going to get much of an improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    A bit, a lot, who cares? You're taking what I said too literally. I'll explain it better exactly how I mean it:
    You're flip-flopping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    If Kevin Durant wants to be closer to an all-round good player, instead of just a one dimentional player, he'd have to improve his defensive skills. That's obvious. Whether he will or not is another matter. I think it's possible. You think it's totally impossible.
    So we've gone from Superstar to good player? What's next, a great 'spark of the bench' player?

    While he may put effort into improving his defense he isn't going to improve to a great level which you were insinuating before you flopped on your argument because it went no-where. Durant may be able to improve, but people will still burn him, ESPECIALLY if he is at small forward where he will come up against bigger guys and have to take pressure not only from opposing small forwards, but power forwards and center too. A coach would be stupid to not try and exploit having a stick with no idea on defense on the other team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I'm not saying he'll ever be as good as him, but Tayshaun Prince has a similar build (not exact, so don't take it too literally) to Durant, and he does more than just flop on defense. Oh but maybe he already knew everything and had his basic defensive skill set before he got to the NBA, and hasn't worked on becoming a great defender since he got to the Pistons
    Tayshaun understands basketball. You don't understand the concept of basketball IQ. To you being a great player is about having the appearance of one, you could see that when you were going on about blocking ability with no mention of timing (something that Durant has no grip on because he doesn't understand how to player proper defense). Tayshaun knows his role on the Pistons. He isn't there to specifically score and specifically defend. He is there to fill in the gaps which he is extremely successful at. He anchors the team together. Durant's role on the Sonics is to score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Nah, jumping ability and height never helped anyone block shots

    I'm not saying it's the be-al, end-all, just that his athletic base and height/length will make it easier for him than if he wasn't long or athletic. Timing is still the key, and he'll have to learn that. I think he can if he works hard enough. You think he has no hope.
    If you time your block you can get the majority of players. Never heard of Mugsy blocking Ewing I see...

    The reason Camby gets the amount of blocks he does isn't because of his height or jumping ability, it is because he has great timing.

    Incase you haven't noticed, blocking is one of the harder skills to perfect in the league as you cannot teach someone to have great timing. If you could, then finding a solid shot blocking center wouldn't be as difficult as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Apologies, I usually just use the word "average" in that context similarly to the way most people use "nothing special" and those kind of things. So there was a bit of a miscommunication.


    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Anyway, I still don't think it's out of the question for anyone to commit to working on a weakness. I think Bowen must have done that, even if it was just shooting from the corners, because he's good at that. Unless he always just had that gift
    Bowen hasn't addressed his weaknesses. He hasn't developed a consistent shot, he hasn't worked on making the easiest shot in the game. Shooting from one corner is the same as shooting from the other corner. It's not a hard skill to develop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I know, I play those positions when I play basketball. I always have. I'm only 6'5", 200lbs, and decently athletic, so I'm obviously not as incumbered by size or a lack of athleticism, but my size compared to others around me over the years has been what has put me in those positions. But so that I could be more versatile, I worked on weaknesses, some that weren't related to my position (specifically ball-handling) that allow me to become a better and more versatle player. Durant can obviously work on defense too, if he chooses. So can Lee.
    Firstly, you're apparently Australian. Don't do this foot, inch and pound crap.

    Developing dribbling skills is no where near the same as developing on defense. You can control which direction you make the ball go. Few can control which way their opponent goes. You can try to work on defense but your body has your limits. Lee just doesn't have the lateral quickness. No matter how much effort he puts in he won't improve THAT much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well he has to adress that with better awareness and footwork then. While athleticism is a big help, footwork, awareness and persistent effort are the keys to defense. Lee can address those areas if he wants to. Whether he will is another matter. I remain optimistic that it's posible. You obviously don't
    You obviously haven't watched David Lee play much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I do see (and respect) the effort Lee puts in to doing the dirty work. I try to play with high work ethic, and try to play the best defense I can always, and it has pissed me off a number of times over the years when others I've played with haven't done that.
    You don't need to be on a team where everybody goes for the lose balls, that usually how injuries happen with collisions. Having one or two people on the team to do the dirty work goes a long way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I think Nash just hasn't worked hard enough on his defensive skills to be a good defensive player.
    He just doesn't have the ability or the knowledge on defense. On offense he is a freak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Athleticism is handy on defense, but it only gets you so far. If you just looked at the numbers, Tracy McGrady was a pretty good shot blocker for his size and position in his early years in the NBA, as well as getting a fair number of steals. But over the years, his numbers in those categories have dwindled, and he's not really considered to be a good defensive player.
    The amount of shots you block doesn't make you a good defender. Look at Camby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    That could have been because he had to take on more offensive responsibility, and that's fair. Players can only do so much. I know when I play, and I go out there 150% to defense, sometimes I feel a bit tired on the offensive end. But these are pro basketball players, who's job is to play basketball. Their life revolves around the game. They can learn to adapt and change and develop their games to improve in certain areas. Some are probably too set in their ways and content to continue playing their own style to do anything to change, such as Nash or McGrady. Durant might be like this as well. If he is, it's a shame, because being so young, he has the potential to grow in all areas of the game, so long as he's commited to working at it. Defense is hard work. A lot of people aren't willing to do hard work. But if they are in basketball, they can reap the rewards of becoming better players.
    Durant has offensive potential, he doesn't have much defensive potential. He should remain at SG otherwise he becomes a liability for his team.

    You don't seem to understand how to schedule a proper season training program. If players CONSTANTLY work on areas of their game they're only going to get injured. When players say that they work on an aspect all summer/winter/whatever, they don't literally mean it. And I'm sure teams would rather have their key players healthy for the season apposed to getting injured and worn about before it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Tayshaun Prince's skinny frame serves him just fine defensively
    Once again you need to look up Basketball IQ and the fact that he understands the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Again, using Tayshaun Prince as a loose example, he does just fine. You seem to think that every NBA player should just stick to their initial rookie skillset, and not try and expand much from there.
    I never said every rookie should. I said Durant should because he has no real other areas he can improve much. If you're drafted to fulfil a role on a team you're expected to practice that job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Durant has potential to become better at all aspects of the game, so long as he wants to. So does everyone.
    This isn't a bloody Disney movie...

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Obviously some people are more advanced than others at different aspects as Rookies, and others are limited by things such as athleticism and the like, and that's fine. It doesn't mean they should just give up on working on their weaknesses, and just be content with being one-dimensional.
    The amount of effort which it would take for Durant to improve to the point where he can play solid defense at the small forward spot would most likely be wasted. He's there to shoot, he can work on his defense during team practice, which is what all players do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well it's easier and less subjective to use Jordan as the benchmark, because that's what he is, the ultimate goal and what I'm sure pretty much every young basketball player dreams of being.
    If you start to compare any player to the best player in that sport in the world, then they're only losers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    There may never be anyone as good as Jordan, but it still doesn't mean people should just give up trying to improve aspects of their game that are poor at this point.
    It depends on what their role is in the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    If everyone went into the NBA thinking "Oh, I'm not a good defensive player" or "Oh, I'm not as good as Jordan", and just gave up because of it, then we'd have no NBA. People are able and are willing to improve. I don't know if Durant is willing, but I think it's possible that he can. Not to Jordan's standard, but he can improve. You obviously don't think this is possible.
    Why the fuck would someone try to compare themself to Jordan in the first place. The logic is just dumb.

    When players get drafted, the number they are picked is not because of their playing ability, but because they are the type of player which a team wants. Players know their roles and focus on maintaining and improving that before working on other areas of their game.



    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Doesn't mean he shouldn't try to improve. That's what seperates good players from great players, and great players from legends - the willingness to work on getting better. Jordan wasn't a surefire Hall of Famer right off the bat. Him and Ron Harper weren't that different coming out of college as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong). Jordan was fortunate not to have the injuries Harper had, as well has having the willingness and desire to get better, and become the best he could be. He could have just coasted on athleticism, and not worked that hard to improve his jump shot or defense. But he didn't. He worked as hard as he could, and reaped the benefits.
    I'll say it once more because you don't understand.

    You. Don't. Use. The. Best. Player. Of. A. Sport. In. An. Argument.

    Sure it's all nice and dandy to give Jordan's life story, but the guy had the abilities, he COULD work and as he had the abilities he HAD the potential to improve. The whole argument you're going on with now, and I know it's not intentional, is that Jordan somehow managed to overcome the odds and become the greatest, like Rocky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I don't know if Durant is willing to work, because I don't know him personally. All I'm saying is that it's within the realm of possibility that he (or any other player who has defensive deficiencies) can improve on defense. You are obviously more pecemistic on this topic than I am.
    He may be able to improve, but it will only be slight/minimal improvements. He will not have an noticeable impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I'm not saying Durant definitely will become a great defensive player. I just think it's totally stupid to think that he should not try to improve, just because he's not good at it now.
    He's there to score, so he's going to score. Seattle's next part of reconstructing their team is to get some defensive players. If they sit and wait for their players to become defensive players then they're a lost cause.

  11. #11
    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Talking Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    This will probably be the last I'll add to this argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you're a one dimensional player like Durant is, even if you put a great degree of effort into improving a different skill you aren't going to get much of an improvement.
    So it's totally predictable then, how much people will develop once they start working on a skill? Right

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You're flip-flopping.

    So we've gone from Superstar to good player? What's next, a great 'spark of the bench' player?
    I've made the same basic point pretty much every time. You're being too pedantic and taking the wording too literally. I think it's pretty obvious what I've meant the entire time, but I'll state it again, in even simpler terms:

    If Kevin Durant wants to become a better overall player, he needs to improve his defense.

    That is my absolute set statement on that. I think it's a reasonable statement. You obviously think it's impossible for Durant to improve his defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    While he may put effort into improving his defense he isn't going to improve to a great level which you were insinuating before you flopped on your argument because it went no-where. Durant may be able to improve, but people will still burn him, ESPECIALLY if he is at small forward where he will come up against bigger guys and have to take pressure not only from opposing small forwards, but power forwards and center too. A coach would be stupid to not try and exploit having a stick with no idea on defense on the other team.
    Won't his teams Power Forwards and Centres be defending the other team's PFs and Cs? As far as I can tell, Small Forward is a wing position, just like Shooting Guard is. There are obviously post-up situations, but I don't see Durant having any less advantages than, say, Rashard Lewis, and he's gotten by defending SFs the majority of his career as far as I'm aware, and he's pretty much the same size and type of player as Durant has shown in the NBA so far.

    Off the top of my head, I can't really think of anyone, other than Ron Artest, who plays the majority of the time at SF and relies mostly on power and strength. Feel free to name some if you can. Corey Maggette may, but he mostly plays as an SG I'd think. Even Artest still gets a fair share of his points from jump shots, away from post-ups and drives.

    Tayshaun understands basketball. You don't understand the concept of basketball IQ. To you being a great player is about having the appearance of one, you could see that when you were going on about blocking ability with no mention of timing (something that Durant has no grip on because he doesn't understand how to player proper defense). Tayshaun knows his role on the Pistons. He isn't there to specifically score and specifically defend. He is there to fill in the gaps which he is extremely successful at. He anchors the team together. Durant's role on the Sonics is to score.
    I understand basketball IQ, and I understand timing. I was just saying that it's to Durant's advantage that he has a good athletic base already. And I think he'd have some knowledge of how the game works as well. In a way, it could be easier for good scorers to become good defenders, because they know what scorers like to do.

    As well as this, Durant averaged almost 3 blocks a game in college. I know that college is a lower-level competition, but he wouldn't have suddenly lost all sense of timing when coming to the NBA. He surely has some clue on the defensive end. Unless you're going to say that his blocks in college were all related to his athleticism and length, which would prove my point that those factors do play a part in shotblocking for some players.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you time your block you can get the majority of players. Never heard of Mugsy blocking Ewing I see...
    I've heard of and seen footage of Michael Jordan blocking Patrick Ewing, but never Muggsy Bogues. Apologies for not having seen every random NBA highlight ever

    Even so, I doubt that a 5'3" guy blocking a 7'0" did it all 150% on timing alone. He must have had to have some jumping ability involved to do it, or else he simply couldn't have reached.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    The reason Camby gets the amount of blocks he does isn't because of his height or jumping ability, it is because he has great timing.
    I agree that Camby has great timing, but he also has the advantage of being long and a good athlete for his size.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Incase you haven't noticed, blocking is one of the harder skills to perfect in the league as you cannot teach someone to have great timing. If you could, then finding a solid shot blocking center wouldn't be as difficult as it is.
    I know that timing is involved. I've blocked a fair number of shots over the years when I've played. While timing is the key, again, I'm just saying that being able to jump well can help, especially against NBA level athletes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Because everyone says 150% what they mean all the time, without any personal conversational vaguearies, especially on the Internet

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Bowen hasn't addressed his weaknesses. He hasn't developed a consistent shot, he hasn't worked on making the easiest shot in the game. Shooting from one corner is the same as shooting from the other corner. It's not a hard skill to develop.
    But Bowen still had to develop that skill, didn't he? Unless he was magically able to shoot 3-point shots from the corner at birth

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Firstly, you're apparently Australian. Don't do this foot, inch and pound crap.
    A number of people in Australia, including me, understand and use imperial measurements when discussing height. When people ask me how tall I am, I tell them that I'm 6'5", and they understand me perfectly People don't really use imperial measurements for weight, but seeing as the majority of posters on here are from the US or the UK, where imperial measurements are standard, I thought it would be easiest for people to understand if I used those measurements.

    Don't just assume someone is from the place they are in as well, especially in a multicultural country like Australia. I could have grown up in the US for all you know. Anyway, I won't attack the person (only the argument), because that'd be a bit childish.

    But yea, just for the record, in metric measurements, I'm 195 centimetres, and 90 kilograms

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Developing dribbling skills is no where near the same as developing on defense. You can control which direction you make the ball go. Few can control which way their opponent goes. You can try to work on defense but your body has your limits. Lee just doesn't have the lateral quickness. No matter how much effort he puts in he won't improve THAT much.
    Oh well he should just give up then, eh?

    You obviously haven't watched David Lee play much.
    I've seen enough to make my own judgements I think

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You don't need to be on a team where everybody goes for the lose balls, that usually how injuries happen with collisions. Having one or two people on the team to do the dirty work goes a long way.
    Obviously I mean they're work hard for the ball and hustle and those sort of things at the appropriate time. Wouldn't it piss you off if you were working hard and doing team things, and you had lazy teammates would wouldn't do those things in situations where they were required to?

    Anyway, I thought it'd be a given that people all wouldn't be going for the ball at once. It's basketball, not a Three Stooges movie

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    He just doesn't have the ability or the knowledge on defense. On offense he is a freak.
    Well he could

    The amount of shots you block doesn't make you a good defender. Look at Camby.
    The point I was making was that McGrady probably got a lot of those blocks back then because he could jump well, and time those jumps well, not because he's a good defender. There's plenty of people I've seen and also played against who aren't good defenders and get a lot of blocks, just because every shot that goes up near them, they jump for, and if they time it well and/or jump high enough, they block them. These are the guys who try and volleyball spike everything into the sixth row. Guys like Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift etc. are like this to an extent. Martin is a decent defender otherwise, but Swift relies mainly on athleticism to get blocks. Camby's athleticism helps him too, as well as his timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Durant has offensive potential, he doesn't have much defensive potential. He should remain at SG otherwise he becomes a liability for his team.
    Wouldn't being a crap defensive player be just as much of a liability for him playing at SG, seeing as they're both wing positions? It's not like there's too many guys playing major minutes at SG that he can get a break from. Therefore, if he wants to be a better player, as an SG or SF, he'll have to improve his defensive skills. I think he can try to do this and that it is possible, you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You don't seem to understand how to schedule a proper season training program. If players CONSTANTLY work on areas of their game they're only going to get injured. When players say that they work on an aspect all summer/winter/whatever, they don't literally mean it. And I'm sure teams would rather have their key players healthy for the season apposed to getting injured and worn about before it begins.
    I was very tempted to just respond to this point with "DUH!", but that's a bit immature

    Obviously they'd work at it at the appropriate times, not literally all the time

    I'm not going into when and when not to be training for Kevin Durant. That's up to his coaches.

    Again, I have played the sport at a decent level for a number of years. I understand a fair few of the concepts involved, whether you think so or not

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Once again you need to look up Basketball IQ and the fact that he understands the game.
    So Durant has no understanding of the game does he? I'm sure he has some concept of what defense involves. Just because you may not have noticed it much as an outside observer of the guy in his 1st NBA season, doesn't mean he doesn't have any clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    I never said every rookie should. I said Durant should because he has no real other areas he can improve much. If you're drafted to fulfil a role on a team you're expected to practice that job.
    And just leave all other areas behind? I bet if he did that, his bad defense would be the first thing everyone picks out as a fault. Just like Carmelo Anthony.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    This isn't a bloody Disney movie...
    Well you're pecemism is pretty unrealistic too...

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    The amount of effort which it would take for Durant to improve to the point where he can play solid defense at the small forward spot would most likely be wasted. He's there to shoot, he can work on his defense during team practice, which is what all players do.
    Yea, he can't ever put in any extra effort on his defence. He should just be resigned to being a crap defender, despite his great athleticism, length, co-ordination, youth and everything else that he can use in his favour

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you start to compare any player to the best player in that sport in the world, then they're only losers...
    It depends on what their role is in the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Why the fuck would someone try to compare themself to Jordan in the first place. The logic is just dumb.
    Well it isn't technically comparing themselves to him, but I can guarantee you that 99 out of 100 basketball players probably wish they could play like him. And I bet there's quite a few that at least would use him as the standard for which excellence is, and try their best to work and improve enough to be even 1/100th of the player he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    When players get drafted, the number they are picked is not because of their playing ability, but because they are the type of player which a team wants. Players know their roles and focus on maintaining and improving that before working on other areas of their game.
    So they should never, ever try to develop new skills, because these skills might not fit their team's perception of them. If anything, further skill development, especially of weaknesses, from their players would probably be welcomed by NBA teams, because it means they are more versatile, and can adapt to different styles, and not have to play just one limiting style. For example, if some of the Phoenix Suns decided to commit to defense, they might actually improve it, and wouldn't always be stuck with the label of a shit defensive team.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    I'll say it once more because you don't understand.

    You. Don't. Use. The. Best. Player. Of. A. Sport. In. An. Argument.
    "And that's the bottom line, because TRImmy said so"

    It's immature, but I couldn't help it.

    It's an easy, understandable comparison for everyone. I'm just saying, Jordan had flaws, and worked on them. People know his story, and understand it better than if I mentioned someone lesser known.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Sure it's all nice and dandy to give Jordan's life story, but the guy had the abilities, he COULD work and as he had the abilities he HAD the potential to improve. The whole argument you're going on with now, and I know it's not intentional, is that Jordan somehow managed to overcome the odds and become the greatest, like Rocky.
    You seem to think Jordan was hyped like LeBron James was coming into the league. I wasn't around in 1984, but from what I understand, while Jordan was a great player in college, and had great potential and everything else, nobody expected him to ever become the greatest player in the league. He had to work at it, like everyone else. He wasn't really that great a shooter, and he overcame that, because he worked at it. I know defense is a more intangible thing than shooting, but Durant can at least try to work at it (at the appropriate times).

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    He may be able to improve, but it will only be slight/minimal improvements. He will not have an noticeable impact.
    So you know how it'll all work out, before it even happens? I'd love to have that crystal ball

    There's nothing that overwhelmingly says to me that Durant has no hope of improving his defensive skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    He's there to score, so he's going to score. Seattle's next part of reconstructing their team is to get some defensive players. If they sit and wait for their players to become defensive players then they're a lost cause.
    Carmelo Anthony is there to score, but people still pick on him for his crap defensive play. Why should Kevin Durant be exempt, and get a free pass to be a crap defensive player forever more?

    Durant is young enough and has the right physical tools to be able to become a better defensive player than he is. The "It's all in his mindset" or whatever argument is poor. Just because you see him do (or not do) certain things on the basketball court, does that mean you know what he's thinking too?

    I don't mean to delve into personal attacks, because it's more mature and proper to just attack the argument, so apologies if I've done that. I've got nothing against TRImmy, I just don't agree with points he's made I can't really be bothered analysing every sentence that is said back and forth anymore, so I'm willing to agree to disagree here. I think Durant can improve his defensive skills if he tries, and TRImmy obviously thinks this isn't possible, so I'm willing to leave things at that, and not divert the thread's topic any further

  12. #12
    Tommy
    Guest

    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    This will probably be the last I'll add to this argument:



    So it's totally predictable then, how much people will develop once they start working on a skill? Right
    Yes it is. Obviously a person who completely sucks at one thing and doesn't have much potential in improving in that area can easily be predicted to not improve much in the skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I've made the same basic point pretty much every time. You're being too pedantic and taking the wording too literally. I think it's pretty obvious what I've meant the entire time, but I'll state it again, in even simpler terms:
    Your argument has changed. it went from all-round Superstar, to good player, to just an improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    If Kevin Durant wants to become a better overall player, he needs to improve his defense.
    To be an overall player you need to be GOOD at all aspects of the game, Durant doesn't and won't meet that criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    That is my absolute set statement on that. I think it's a reasonable statement. You obviously think it's impossible for Durant to improve his defense.
    Durant may be able to improve small aspects of his defense, but the amount will be minimal and will not have an impact on the franchise. He is and will always be a liability if he plays at small forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Won't his teams Power Forwards and Centres be defending the other team's PFs and Cs? As far as I can tell, Small Forward is a wing position, just like Shooting Guard is. There are obviously post-up situations, but I don't see Durant having any less advantages than, say, Rashard Lewis, and he's gotten by defending SFs the majority of his career as far as I'm aware, and he's pretty much the same size and type of player as Durant has shown in the NBA so far.
    This isn't a video game where PF's go to PF's and C's go to C's. When a team knows Durant is playing on a certain side of the key as a small forward, you're going to aim at getting mismatches.

    Durant won't have problems in post up situations?
    The guy would get BURNT every time.

    Lewis is nothing like Durant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Off the top of my head, I can't really think of anyone, other than Ron Artest, who plays the majority of the time at SF and relies mostly on power and strength. Feel free to name some if you can. Corey Maggette may, but he mostly plays as an SG I'd think. Even Artest still gets a fair share of his points from jump shots, away from post-ups and drives.
    Maggette plays small forward as Mobley is too small to.

    You're once again ignoring basketball IQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I understand basketball IQ, and I understand timing.
    Your arguments so far HEAVILY suggest otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I was just saying that it's to Durant's advantage that he has a good athletic base already. And I think he'd have some knowledge of how the game works as well. In a way, it could be easier for good scorers to become good defenders, because they know what scorers like to do.
    Your last statement is not true at all. Scorers may have a scoring instinct, but they're going to play the way their system wants them to, and you can't always predict what they're going to do, unless you get a situation like Fisher had against Deron this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    As well as this, Durant averaged almost 3 blocks a game in college. I know that college is a lower-level competition, but he wouldn't have suddenly lost all sense of timing when coming to the NBA. He surely has some clue on the defensive end. Unless you're going to say that his blocks in college were all related to his athleticism and length, which would prove my point that those factors do play a part in shotblocking for some players.
    BLOCKS DOES NOT EQUAL DEFENSIVE ABILITY AND TALENT! Fuck me dead...

    Firstly, Durant was looked after in college. Secondly, he was playing against smaller players of lesser talent. Adding this point to your argument does NOTHING good for it. You do not understand what you're saying to be honest, you're trying to link ideas because they SOUND like they work, but they simply don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I've heard of and seen footage of Michael Jordan blocking Patrick Ewing, but never Muggsy Bogues. Apologies for not having seen every random NBA highlight ever
    It's not random. It's one of the best examples of size isn't everything in the NBA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Even so, I doubt that a 5'3" guy blocking a 7'0" did it all 150% on timing alone. He must have had to have some jumping ability involved to do it, or else he simply couldn't have reached.
    You don't know what you're talking about, so don't try to address the issue and downplay it. It only makes you look stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I agree that Camby has great timing, but he also has the advantage of being long and a good athlete for his size.
    He hasn't got a unique body compared to other players, what makes him unique is his abilities which aren't physical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I know that timing is involved. I've blocked a fair number of shots over the years when I've played.
    STOP FUCKING ADDING YOURSELF INTO THE ARGUMENT!

    It's just flat out fucking stupid. You're playing basketball on a level that isn't even equal to college. It is irrelevant and absolutely pointless to mention. Nobody cares that you play...

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    While timing is the key, again, I'm just saying that being able to jump well can help, especially against NBA level athletes.
    Timing is more important in length. You go up to early and there will be a foul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    But Bowen still had to develop that skill, didn't he? Unless he was magically able to shoot 3-point shots from the corner at birth
    Shooting the deep shot was the only skill Bowen really had which he could do anything with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    A number of people in Australia, including me, understand and use imperial measurements when discussing height. When people ask me how tall I am, I tell them that I'm 6'5", and they understand me perfectly People don't really use imperial measurements for weight, but seeing as the majority of posters on here are from the US or the UK, where imperial measurements are standard, I thought it would be easiest for people to understand if I used those measurements.
    In Australia we don't talk in pounds and inches. We use kg's and cm's. Don't cop out and make things easier for the other nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Don't just assume someone is from the place they are in as well, especially in a multicultural country like Australia. I could have grown up in the US for all you know. Anyway, I won't attack the person (only the argument), because that'd be a bit childish.
    If you grew up in the US you'd at least understand some of the simple concepts of basketball...

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    But yea, just for the record, in metric measurements, I'm 195 centimetres, and 90 kilograms
    I'm taller and heavier than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Oh well he should just give up then, eh?
    Putting in the effort during team practice will do him enough. He's wasting his time if he aims to devote a large amount of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I've seen enough to make my own judgements I think
    Your judgements are completely wrong. I'm a Knicks fan. I've seen more of David Lee than you ever have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Obviously I mean they're work hard for the ball and hustle and those sort of things at the appropriate time. Wouldn't it piss you off if you were working hard and doing team things, and you had lazy teammates would wouldn't do those things in situations where they were required to?
    Depends on the player. If they're just a great shooter I don't want them wasting their energy diving for lose balls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Anyway, I thought it'd be a given that people all wouldn't be going for the ball at once. It's basketball, not a Three Stooges movie
    You don't understand hustling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well he could
    Fucking hell...

    YOU CANNOT TEACH A PLAYER TO HAVE A GREAT FEEL, SENSE AND KNOWLEDGE FOR THE GAME. Some players are limited in the information they can take and process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    The point I was making was that McGrady probably got a lot of those blocks back then because he could jump well, and time those jumps well, not because he's a good defender. There's plenty of people I've seen and also played against who aren't good defenders and get a lot of blocks, just because every shot that goes up near them, they jump for, and if they time it well and/or jump high enough, they block them. These are the guys who try and volleyball spike everything into the sixth row. Guys like Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift etc. are like this to an extent. Martin is a decent defender otherwise, but Swift relies mainly on athleticism to get blocks. Camby's athleticism helps him too, as well as his timing.
    Timing is the determinant between a foul and a block. It's more important than athleticism. End of story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I was very tempted to just respond to this point with "DUH!", but that's a bit immature

    Obviously they'd work at it at the appropriate times, not literally all the time

    I'm not going into when and when not to be training for Kevin Durant. That's up to his coaches.

    Again, I have played the sport at a decent level for a number of years. I understand a fair few of the concepts involved, whether you think so or not
    But I thought basketball was their LIFE? their reason for living? Therefore they should devote everything to it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    So Durant has no understanding of the game does he? I'm sure he has some concept of what defense involves. Just because you may not have noticed it much as an outside observer of the guy in his 1st NBA season, doesn't mean he doesn't have any clue.
    If he has no idea in college, he generally has no idea in the NBA. He proved that this season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    And just leave all other areas behind? I bet if he did that, his bad defense would be the first thing everyone picks out as a fault. Just like Carmelo Anthony.
    Other areas get address and worked on in team practice. The areas he HIMSELF should focus on are offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well you're pecemism is pretty unrealistic too...
    It's reality. Welcome to the real world. It's not everybody's oyster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Yea, he can't ever put in any extra effort on his defence. He should just be resigned to being a crap defender, despite his great athleticism, length, co-ordination, youth and everything else that he can use in his favour
    If you've ever seen Durant block a shot you know his defensive co-ordination blows. He just flails his arms around. The majority of defense is mental. While players like Artest may have the physical aspects which can help, his mental persistence and fucking around with the heads of the people he guards are what makes him so much more better on defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It depends on what their role is in the team.
    No it doesn't as there isn't a role on a team which is "be the greatest player ever"



    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well it isn't technically comparing themselves to him, but I can guarantee you that 99 out of 100 basketball players probably wish they could play like him. And I bet there's quite a few that at least would use him as the standard for which excellence is, and try their best to work and improve enough to be even 1/100th of the player he is.
    Everyone in the world wishes they could be like him, basketball players or not. Your points are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much effort people put into certain activities, everybody has their limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    So they should never, ever try to develop new skills, because these skills might not fit their team's perception of them. If anything, further skill development, especially of weaknesses, from their players would probably be welcomed by NBA teams, because it means they are more versatile, and can adapt to different styles, and not have to play just one limiting style. For example, if some of the Phoenix Suns decided to commit to defense, they might actually improve it, and wouldn't always be stuck with the label of a shit defensive team.
    If you're going to commit to developing something that the team doesn't use, it's wasted energy. If everybody on the team doesn't commit to developing the same thing it doesn't work. The Suns are a good example. Certain players try to play defense, others simply can't. Therefore the defense really just doesn't work. It's a team effort. Some players can, some players can't. Focus on the positives and perfect them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    "And that's the bottom line, because TRImmy said so"

    It's immature, but I couldn't help it.
    If you're going to try to become a regular in this forum, or any sports forum, you need to understand how things work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It's an easy, understandable comparison for everyone. I'm just saying, Jordan had flaws, and worked on them. People know his story, and understand it better than if I mentioned someone lesser known.
    Jordan had flaws he didn't even need to work on to look good at. He got calls...

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    You seem to think Jordan was hyped like LeBron James was coming into the league. I wasn't around in 1984, but from what I understand, while Jordan was a great player in college, and had great potential and everything else, nobody expected him to ever become the greatest player in the league. He had to work at it, like everyone else. He wasn't really that great a shooter, and he overcame that, because he worked at it. I know defense is a more intangible thing than shooting, but Durant can at least try to work at it (at the appropriate times).
    Jordan had the potential, ability and ethic to use his abilities to the fullest. He wasn't a scrub, even if you ignore the work ethic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    So you know how it'll all work out, before it even happens? I'd love to have that crystal ball
    He just doesn't have the potential to be a solid defender. If you watched basketball more instead of ranting on about your own endeavors you too might be able to notice potential limits in players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    There's nothing that overwhelmingly says to me that Durant has no hope of improving his defensive skills.
    He can improve them, but it will be minimal and will not help his all around game. He will still be a liability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Carmelo Anthony is there to score, but people still pick on him for his crap defensive play. Why should Kevin Durant be exempt, and get a free pass to be a crap defensive player forever more?
    Carmelo doesn't bother, which is why people rag on about him. He and his Nuggets are a team that when they're losing will simply quit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Durant is young enough and has the right physical tools to be able to become a better defensive player than he is. The "It's all in his mindset" or whatever argument is poor. Just because you see him do (or not do) certain things on the basketball court, does that mean you know what he's thinking too?
    You can determine a good defender from a bad defender by their ability to read the game, not by their physical tools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I don't mean to delve into personal attacks, because it's more mature and proper to just attack the argument, so apologies if I've done that. I've got nothing against TRImmy, I just don't agree with points he's made I can't really be bothered analysing every sentence that is said back and forth anymore, so I'm willing to agree to disagree here. I think Durant can improve his defensive skills if he tries, and TRImmy obviously thinks this isn't possible, so I'm willing to leave things at that, and not divert the thread's topic any further
    You don't need to apologise. This isn't a Nazi camp. Far worse arguments happen in the WWE forum on a daily basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Detfink
    I suggest you find alternative sites to gauge your projections besides realgm.
    Yeah.

    While RealGM is a good site to get information on the prospects, the order which they number the drafts is usually based on ability rather than team needs.
    Last edited by Tommy; 05-30-2008 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. #13
    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Talking Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    I can't resist responding to some of this

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Yes it is. Obviously a person who completely sucks at one thing and doesn't have much potential in improving in that area can easily be predicted to not improve much in the skill.
    I don't really see Durant as not having much potential for improvement in the area. Like you've said, he was fulfilling a certain role for the Sonics this year. Unless you've coached him, or are privy to his personal thoughts, you don't really know his mindset, and can only judge him on what you've seen in games. He may

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Your argument has changed. it went from all-round Superstar, to good player, to just an improvement.
    Wowee I've still been trying to get the same basic point across this whole time - that it's not impossible for Durant to improve his defense. You obviously still think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    To be an overall player you need to be GOOD at all aspects of the game, Durant doesn't and won't meet that criteria.

    Durant may be able to improve small aspects of his defense, but the amount will be minimal and will not have an impact on the franchise. He is and will always be a liability if he plays at small forward.
    Well lets just take him out the back and shoot him then, at 19 years of age, with one NBA season under his belt He'll never be anything more than TRImmy says he'll be

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    This isn't a video game where PF's go to PF's and C's go to C's. When a team knows Durant is playing on a certain side of the key as a small forward, you're going to aim at getting mismatches.
    I know that it's not a video game I'm just saying that traditionally, in most basketball, the SF is a wing player on the perimeter, similar to the SG. I realise there are post-up situations, but not every SF is going to be going into the post on offense, unless they are comfortable doing so, and it doesn't drastically affect their team's offensive setup.

    Durant won't have problems in post up situations?
    The guy would get BURNT every time.
    I never said he wouldn't have any problems. I said he wouldn't have any less advantage than a similarly built player like Rashard Lewis. Don't twist what I say just so that it suits your counter claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Lewis is nothing like Durant.
    Rashard Lewis is pretty similar to Kevin Durant. In fact, I think the reason why the Sonics let Lewis go is because Durant was a similar player, right down to body type and size, only with potential to be even better. It's not a laughable comparison by any stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Maggette plays small forward as Mobley is too small to.
    It's like that for 48 minutes of every Clippers game is it? I'm pretty sure Maggette at least plays some time at SG, when other people on the court with him dictate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Your arguments so far HEAVILY suggest otherwise.
    I get it. I know I get it. Whether you like it or not, I've played basketball long enough and seen enough to have a decent basketball IQ myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Your last statement is not true at all. Scorers may have a scoring instinct, but they're going to play the way their system wants them to, and you can't always predict what they're going to do, unless you get a situation like Fisher had against Deron this year.
    Your right, you can't always predict what they're going to do, especially being an outside observer, like you are

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    BLOCKS DOES NOT EQUAL DEFENSIVE ABILITY AND TALENT! Fuck me dead...
    I know that The reason I mentioned Durant's shotblocking from college was that if he's not a good defender, using his timing and the like, then his length and athleticism must have played at least a bit of a part in some of his shot blocking. Unless he did have timing in college, and it isn't as good in the NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Firstly, Durant was looked after in college. Secondly, he was playing against smaller players of lesser talent. Adding this point to your argument does NOTHING good for it. You do not understand what you're saying to be honest, you're trying to link ideas because they SOUND like they work, but they simply don't.
    No, I'm saying what I think, and I understand what I think. I'm not saying what I think people might think sounds good. I'd love to have such knowledge of what other people are thinking, like you seem too Don't try and belittle me and make me feel stupid. You've never met me, so there's no reason to attack the person, just their argument. It's a basic rule of proper argument

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    It's not random. It's one of the best examples of size isn't everything in the NBA.
    It is random in the sense that it is one play in the history of the game that you've pulled out as an example. I've never seen it, and there's probably a ton of people who've never seen it. That doesn't discredit it as an example, but you pulled it out of nowhere and made it sound as though Muggsy Bogues went around blocking the shots of 7-footers all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You don't know what you're talking about, so don't try to address the issue and downplay it. It only makes you look stupid.
    It's basic physics. At his size, Bogues would have had to have been able to jump to make the play on the 7'0" Ewing. I haven't seen the play and the context of it, but unless Ewing was crouching down a lot lower than he would at any other time, or unless Bogues had Inspector Gadget arms, Bogues' jumping ability would have had to come into play in some way.

    I've had shots blocked by people shorter than me, and it probably was because they timed it well, but never by someone who was over half a metre (metric terms! ) shorter than me, so I find it hard to believe his jumping ability didn't play some part in that one instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    STOP FUCKING ADDING YOURSELF INTO THE ARGUMENT!

    It's just flat out fucking stupid. You're playing basketball on a level that isn't even equal to college. It is irrelevant and absolutely pointless to mention. Nobody cares that you play...
    How do you know what lthe highest level of basketball I've played is? All I've said is that I played at a "decent level". That might well have been above any level you've played. You don't know. I'm short in most contexts if I play centre, so that might be why you think I haven't played anywhere but low levels, but there hasn't been that many taller people on teams I've played in, but I've played against people taller and bigger than myself a number of times. I have played and am capable of playing other positions as well.

    Anyway, I agree it is irrelevant when it's not in context, but it has been each time I've mentioned it. The only reason I ever bought it up was to differentiate myself from just another armchair observer, not to talk myself up. It generally lends a bit more credibility and and you can get a better idea of things if you've actually been involved in it yourself.

    But if it's the case that nobody cares that I've played, nobody cares that you've played "representative basketball" either

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Timing is more important in length. You go up to early and there will be a foul.
    You hate to hear it, but I've played basketball for a long time. I realise what is going on and understand what goes on on the court

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Shooting the deep shot was the only skill Bowen really had which he could do anything with.
    So he was born with the ability to shoot the deep shot then?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    In Australia we don't talk in pounds and inches. We use kg's and cm's. Don't cop out and make things easier for the other nations.
    It's not the accepted standard, but plenty of people in Australia do talk in feet and inches when referring to height. Just because you don't, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and you don't need to make people seem like idiots because they do something differently to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you grew up in the US you'd at least understand some of the simple concepts of basketball...
    Because I've never learnt anything about basketball otherwise

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    I'm taller and heavier than you.
    Yea, so?

    I was saying it to use centimetres and kilograms, and not saying it to try and make myself sound "big and intimidating". The only reason I originally mentioned my size at all in earlier posts was to give a context to what I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Your judgements are completely wrong. I'm a Knicks fan. I've seen more of David Lee than you ever have.
    Well good on you. I only see what is shown on pay television here in Australia. We only get a few games a week, and not many Knicks games. I can only judge from what I see. If I'm wrong in your opinion, then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Depends on the player. If they're just a great shooter I don't want them wasting their energy diving for lose balls.
    Well we obviously have differing views on how we like people to play. I'd prefer some players to be multi-dimensional. This isn't always possible, but IMO it makes the whole team more versatile if players are able to do different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You don't understand hustling.
    Yea, right, ok then

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Fucking hell...

    YOU CANNOT TEACH A PLAYER TO HAVE A GREAT FEEL, SENSE AND KNOWLEDGE FOR THE GAME. Some players are limited in the information they can take and process.
    Obviously

    So you've coached Kevin Durant, and know exactly what he's capable of, and how much of a basketball mind he has then?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Timing is the determinant between a foul and a block. It's more important than athleticism. End of story.
    I know (and have acknowledged that I know numerous times) that timing is more important. You seem to think that athleticism never, ever plays a part in any shotblocking at any time. It does. Not always, but it can sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    But I thought basketball was their LIFE? their reason for living? Therefore they should devote everything to it?
    Yea I think you're just opposing for the sake of opposing here. It's pretty obvious what I meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    It's reality. Welcome to the real world. It's not everybody's oyster.
    Well obviously I have a more positive and optimistic mindset than you. Not everyone thinks the worst straight away.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    No it doesn't as there isn't a role on a team which is "be the greatest player ever"
    Because there's so much to respond to here, I began writing something in that space, but I went on to something else, and that part didn't end up making sense. My mistake I'll respond to that part now then:

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you start to compare any player to the best player in that sport in the world, then they're only losers...
    Or they could just be using Jordan as a benchmark, and trying to show a bit of determination to improve, just like he did. Some people just might have the mindset that they want to keep improving and striving to be the best (eg. Kobe Bryant), because they know that there's someone out there better than them, or has been better before (eg. Jordan). There's a negative way to look at it, like you have, and there's a positive way to look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Everyone in the world wishes they could be like him, basketball players or not. Your points are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much effort people put into certain activities, everybody has their limitations.
    I know that, but people can still try to improve. I highly doubt Durant has reached the ceiling of his capabilities in any area of basketball, even defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you're going to commit to developing something that the team doesn't use, it's wasted energy. If everybody on the team doesn't commit to developing the same thing it doesn't work. The Suns are a good example. Certain players try to play defense, others simply can't. Therefore the defense really just doesn't work. It's a team effort. Some players can, some players can't. Focus on the positives and perfect them.
    If it was a skill he had, they would try to use it, I'm sure. It doesn't hurt to work on the lesser aspects of your game occasionally, even if they aren't getting used at the minute. You never know, maybe Durant might just want to be something more than just a scorer

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    If you're going to try to become a regular in this forum, or any sports forum, you need to understand how things work.
    Who made you God? This is an opinion forum the last time I checked, and I've been a part of it for over 18 months. I don't see anything hugely wrong with what I'm saying, and I don't see anything you've said as proving me to be overwhelmingly wrong either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Jordan had flaws he didn't even need to work on to look good at. He got calls...


    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    Jordan had the potential, ability and ethic to use his abilities to the fullest. He wasn't a scrub, even if you ignore the work ethic.
    But still, Jordan wouldn't have been what he was without the work ethic. I agree that he had a good base of abilites and the like, but if he was slack and didn't try to improve further, he wouldn't have been as good as he was.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    He just doesn't have the potential to be a solid defender. If you watched basketball more instead of ranting on about your own endeavors you too might be able to notice potential limits in players.
    I'm not ranting about my own endeavours. Anytime I've mentioned myself it has been totally relevant to the what I was saying I feel, because it showed that I've actually played the game and know what happens out on the court.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRImmy
    You don't need to apologise. This isn't a Nazi camp. Far worse arguments happen in the WWE forum on a daily basis.
    Well I'm just trying to show that I'm a bit more mature than turning it into a personal attack, because it's not. A few of your comments in your last post have come close to that, and it's not part of the conversation, so it's not really necessary. I don't appreciate being treated like a total idiot, and you don't need to be such an overbearing know-it-all about things. It's not that serious that you have to turn to berating people and making them seem like they know nothing. I'm not some 12 year old kid who doesn't understand the game. In fact, if what your age says at the side of the screen is correct, I'm 2 years older than you. I know age doesn't equal knowledge, but I've played the game and watched it for a long, long time. I'm pretty sure I do have a fair grasp of what is going on

    Anyway, like I said before, I'm willing to agree to disagree, because I don't think we're going to come to any common ground, and we'll just continue to totally divert the thread away from its original topic.

    To think this all began from an innocent throwaway comment about someone needing to improve their defense a bit
    Last edited by Damon; 05-30-2008 at 01:42 PM.

  14. #14
    Tommy
    Guest

    Default Re: 2008 NBA Draft Lottery Discussion: Derrick Rose #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I can't resist responding to some of this



    I don't really see Durant as not having much potential for improvement in the area. Like you've said, he was fulfilling a certain role for the Sonics this year. Unless you've coached him, or are privy to his personal thoughts, you don't really know his mindset, and can only judge him on what you've seen in games. He may
    Potential isn't completely limited by mindset. It's ability which limits potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Wowee I've still been trying to get the same basic point across this whole time - that it's not impossible for Durant to improve his defense. You obviously still think it is.
    Improving defense became the focus of your argument after him becoming a superstar defender, then a good defender got shut down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well lets just take him out the back and shoot him then, at 19 years of age, with one NBA season under his belt He'll never be anything more than TRImmy says he'll be
    This season the way he played was basically the same as college. Good on offense, lost on defense. He just doesn't understand that end of the game and defense is one of the hardest skills to teach. He won't be able to make substantial improvement to the point where he can guard better players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I know that it's not a video game I'm just saying that traditionally, in most basketball, the SF is a wing player on the perimeter, similar to the SG. I realise there are post-up situations, but not every SF is going to be going into the post on offense, unless they are comfortable doing so, and it doesn't drastically affect their team's offensive setup.
    You don't understand coaching either. If ANY coach new that Durant was going to be playing on a certain side of the court, they would focus on getting a mismatch on him as they'll either demolish him and score, or he'll foul them. With coaching you cannot say "Just stick to the same areas". Adjustments are made for each team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I never said he wouldn't have any problems. I said he wouldn't have any less advantage than a similarly built player like Rashard Lewis. Don't twist what I say just so that it suits your counter claims.
    Lewis can defend on the post, Durant can't. They're completely different players. You DON'T know what you're talking about. In your argument HORRIBLE examples have been used including Jordan, Prince and Lewis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Rashard Lewis is pretty similar to Kevin Durant. In fact, I think the reason why the Sonics let Lewis go is because Durant was a similar player, right down to body type and size, only with potential to be even better. It's not a laughable comparison by any stretch.


    Lewis was let go because of the amount of money the guy wanted. The Sonics are a rebuilding team and didn't want to pay a shitload for a guy who wouldn't help development.

    You don't know Lewis. Stop using him as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It's like that for 48 minutes of every Clippers game is it? I'm pretty sure Maggette at least plays some time at SG, when other people on the court with him dictate it.
    Maggette's size allows him to spend most of his time at small forward. The guards on the Clippers are too small to rotate into the forward positions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I get it. I know I get it. Whether you like it or not, I've played basketball long enough and seen enough to have a decent basketball IQ myself.
    STOP TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF IN AN ARGUMENT.

    If you play anything like your basketball IQ, you seriously blow chunks. I'm sorry, but ratting on about how much you may against players who don't even make the cut for NCAA is downright stupid. Let alone introducing the fact that it has helped your so called basketball IQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Your right, you can't always predict what they're going to do, especially being an outside observer, like you are
    Do your research and listen to what players say once the game has finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I know that
    No you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    The reason I mentioned Durant's shotblocking from college was that if he's not a good defender, using his timing and the like, then his length and athleticism must have played at least a bit of a part in some of his shot blocking. Unless he did have timing in college, and it isn't as good in the NBA
    College game is different to NBA. You can get away with using size to make it appear that you're good. Once you get to the NBA this is easily exposed. The refs not calling foul when he jumped into guys also helped his shotblocking too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    No, I'm saying what I think, and I understand what I think. I'm not saying what I think people might think sounds good. I'd love to have such knowledge of what other people are thinking, like you seem too Don't try and belittle me and make me feel stupid. You've never met me, so there's no reason to attack the person, just their argument. It's a basic rule of proper argument
    I'm attacking your argument by addressing the vast majority of areas which simply DONT MAKE SENSE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It is random in the sense that it is one play in the history of the game that you've pulled out as an example. I've never seen it, and there's probably a ton of people who've never seen it.
    Anyone who knows of Ewing knows of the Bogues block.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    That doesn't discredit it as an example, but you pulled it out of nowhere and made it sound as though Muggsy Bogues went around blocking the shots of 7-footers all the time.
    I used the example to show that timing is more important than physical abilities. Something you don't seem to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It's basic physics. At his size, Bogues would have had to have been able to jump to make the play on the 7'0" Ewing. I haven't seen the play and the context of it, but unless Ewing was crouching down a lot lower than he would at any other time, or unless Bogues had Inspector Gadget arms, Bogues' jumping ability would have had to come into play in some way.
    Bogues couldn't leap like Webb or Robinson. He timed his jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I've had shots blocked by people shorter than me, and it probably was because they timed it well, but never by someone who was over half a metre (metric terms! ) shorter than me, so I find it hard to believe his jumping ability didn't play some part in that one instance.
    STOP TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF YOU BLOODY NARCISSIST.

    Please understand and finally get it through your head, that talking about your own experiences doesn't mean you understand the game. It adds nothing to your argument.

    Bogues wasn't a high jumper, he was rather average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    How do you know what lthe highest level of basketball I've played is? All I've said is that I played at a "decent level". That might well have been above any level you've played.
    I was at the AIS for a while.

    The level of basketball played in Australia, even at the higher levels, doesn't compare with college.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    You don't know. I'm short in most contexts if I play centre, so that might be why you think I haven't played anywhere but low levels, but there hasn't been that many taller people on teams I've played in, but I've played against people taller and bigger than myself a number of times. I have played and am capable of playing other positions as well.
    Had enough of talking about yourself instead of the argument yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Anyway, I agree it is irrelevant when it's not in context, but it has been each time I've mentioned it. The only reason I ever bought it up was to differentiate myself from just another armchair observer, not to talk myself up. It generally lends a bit more credibility and and you can get a better idea of things if you've actually been involved in it yourself.
    It is not in context. You haven't played college or NBA level. Your experiences mean fuck all. Sorry, but it's true. You are talking yourself up. In the history of the Above the Rim subforum you're the only poster EVER to consistently talk about themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    But if it's the case that nobody cares that I've played, nobody cares that you've played "representative basketball" either
    I don't give a fuck. People know that I know my stuff. I had to post in order for people to recognise. Not rant about my playing ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    You hate to hear it, but I've played basketball for a long time. I realise what is going on and understand what goes on on the court


    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    So he was born with the ability to shoot the deep shot then?
    The argument you're going for now is completely stupid. Some players are simply better at doing aspects of games better than others. For some reasons players who have a good deep shot aren't as successful in the mid-range area. Bowen is an example of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    It's not the accepted standard, but plenty of people in Australia do talk in feet and inches when referring to height. Just because you don't, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and you don't need to make people seem like idiots because they do something differently to you.
    I'm blunt. If you don't like it, I honestly don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Because I've never learnt anything about basketball otherwise
    What you've learnt so far is Disney land bullcrap that every player can reach for the stars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Yea, so?

    I was saying it to use centimetres and kilograms, and not saying it to try and make myself sound "big and intimidating". The only reason I originally mentioned my size at all in earlier posts was to give a context to what I was saying.
    You were talking about yourself, not the argument. You NEVER try to use yourself to prove a point in sports.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well good on you. I only see what is shown on pay television here in Australia. We only get a few games a week, and not many Knicks games. I can only judge from what I see. If I'm wrong in your opinion, then so be it.
    Then don't say you've seen enough David Lee. The Knicks only get 1 or 2 televised games. The coverage we get here is generally always Lakers, Nuggets, Suns or Cavs. Same shit over and over. You won't learn anything unless you watch other teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well we obviously have differing views on how we like people to play. I'd prefer some players to be multi-dimensional. This isn't always possible, but IMO it makes the whole team more versatile if players are able to do different things.
    It's wasted energy. It makes the team lopsided if players can do activities which others can't, and you try to use these on a constant basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Obviously

    So you've coached Kevin Durant, and know exactly what he's capable of, and how much of a basketball mind he has then?
    Just like the potential of most players are mapped by other regulars here, we go by what we see. He is a one dimensional, one minded basketball player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I know (and have acknowledged that I know numerous times) that timing is more important. You seem to think that athleticism never, ever plays a part in any shotblocking at any time. It does. Not always, but it can sometimes.
    Athleticism is a silly point to bring in because everyone has it to a certain degree. Not everybody is a good shot blocker, hence why timing is more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Yea I think you're just opposing for the sake of opposing here. It's pretty obvious what I meant.
    In your arguments stop insinuating and state what you're saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well obviously I have a more positive and optimistic mindset than you. Not everyone thinks the worst straight away.
    I don't think the worst of every situation, but you need to accept that sports is sports.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Because there's so much to respond to here, I began writing something in that space, but I went on to something else, and that part didn't end up making sense. My mistake I'll respond to that part now then:
    Yay for Flipper!

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Or they could just be using Jordan as a benchmark, and trying to show a bit of determination to improve, just like he did. Some people just might have the mindset that they want to keep improving and striving to be the best (eg. Kobe Bryant), because they know that there's someone out there better than them, or has been better before (eg. Jordan). There's a negative way to look at it, like you have, and there's a positive way to look at it.
    Positive and optimistic ways don't work out in sports. You'd know if you're a Knicks fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I know that, but people can still try to improve. I highly doubt Durant has reached the ceiling of his capabilities in any area of basketball, even defense.
    Players are limited by their physical abilities and their basketball IQ. Durant's defensive IQ has always been shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    If it was a skill he had, they would try to use it, I'm sure. It doesn't hurt to work on the lesser aspects of your game occasionally, even if they aren't getting used at the minute. You never know, maybe Durant might just want to be something more than just a scorer
    It's not what Durant wants. It's what the organisation wants. Right now, he's there to score and must FOCUS on improving his FG%, not defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Who made you God? This is an opinion forum the last time I checked, and I've been a part of it for over 18 months. I don't see anything hugely wrong with what I'm saying, and I don't see anything you've said as proving me to be overwhelmingly wrong either.
    You're proving yourself wrong by using many bad examples, including yourself, () to aid an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    But still, Jordan wouldn't have been what he was without the work ethic. I agree that he had a good base of abilites and the like, but if he was slack and didn't try to improve further, he wouldn't have been as good as he was.
    He had potential. Your work ethic can be the best thing ever, but without the tools and potential, there won't be drastic improvements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    I'm not ranting about my own endeavours. Anytime I've mentioned myself it has been totally relevant to the what I was saying I feel, because it showed that I've actually played the game and know what happens out on the court.
    You never use yourself in an argument.
    Your points made by using yourself aren't relevant.
    Playing the game doesn't mean you understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Well I'm just trying to show that I'm a bit more mature than turning it into a personal attack, because it's not. A few of your comments in your last post have come close to that, and it's not part of the conversation, so it's not really necessary. I don't appreciate being treated like a total idiot, and you don't need to be such an overbearing know-it-all about things. It's not that serious that you have to turn to berating people and making them seem like they know nothing. I'm not some 12 year old kid who doesn't understand the game. In fact, if what your age says at the side of the screen is correct, I'm 2 years older than you. I know age doesn't equal knowledge, but I've played the game and watched it for a long, long time. I'm pretty sure I do have a fair grasp of what is going on
    The sports forum is blunt. Stop taking everything to heart.

    You only watch the games you see on TV. We don't have many games televised. As many posters on these forums know, I had to go to great lengths in order to see all the shit that I have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    Anyway, like I said before, I'm willing to agree to disagree, because I don't think we're going to come to any common ground, and we'll just continue to totally divert the thread away from its original topic.
    It's not really diverting the topic considering we are discussing player potential around draft time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon
    To think this all began from an innocent throwaway comment about someone needing to improve their defense a bit*
    *to an all-round superstar level.

  15. #15
    Dantoo
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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    Tommy and Damon seriously need to shorten there posts As for Durant I think he really stopped trying in every area besides scoring shortly after the season started.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Ed's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    Kevin Durant will on D it's all about effort.

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    War has changed Silent Killer's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    Judging Durant’s defensive potential solely on his rookie season is neither fair nor does it make much sense. Same can be said for judging his all around game. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but did Kobe and Lebron have better rookie seasons than this? Actually, Kobe had the worst out of the 3 and he’s considered the best player in the league and a lock down defender when he puts in the effort. Lebron got more rebounds and assists, but he was bigger then than Durant is now and shot 3 percentage points lower.


    I have no doubt in my mind that barring injury, when it’s all said and done, Durant will be considered a top 5 player in this league if not the best. His work ethic is off the charts, nearing Kobe levels at times. I remember reading an article awhile back about how when Olympic team held optional practices, Kobe and him were the only people to show. I’ve also read numerous scouting reports from his college days and even Sonic’s practice reports that cite how hard he works.

    All this guy needs is to bulk up and refine his skills a bit. He has the length to be a great defensive and post-up player. And on top of that he has a great jumper. Give hm him a few years and you’ll see.

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    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Talking Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    I've mentioned myself a couple of times, mainly when it is relevant to do so. I've hardly got some huge history of going on about myself for no reason

    And this is the first I've ever heard of the Bogues-on-Ewing block as well. I've heard and seen many times a big Jordan-on-Ewing block, but never Bogues. I must have just missed that

    Anyway, I can't be bothered going through things point by point again, because I think it's clear that we have different ideas on how the game is played, what we have seen and do watch, and everything else. I don't think I'm necessarily wrong in my views, and I don't really feel like I've been totally disproved in anything. You don't think you're wrong in yours, and you feel you've proved a point, and that's fine. I think we can agree to disagree, and just leave it at that, because we'll probably be going back and forth for ages if we keep it up

  19. #19
    Heavyweight Thunder's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    I didn't feel like reading the last couple essays but I'll put my thoughts in.

    Durant will fill out over the next few years and won't be thrown around like he is now. He will get bigger. His long arms already are an advantage for his D. How do you know he doesn't have that IQ or knowledge? That's in his mind, and if he didn't show alot of it this year it's just because he's still learning. If he truly puts work into improving his defense during the offseason, he can become great over the next few seasons. He's not immature and unmotivated like many other young guys out there. He really loves basketball and will do anything to get better. I can truly see him defending opposing guards well, as soon as this season coming up.

  20. #20
    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    Bump.

    People's thoughts on this, 4 1/2 years later?

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    Senior Member Ed's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    KD has really made it a point to become a complete player this season.

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    Occasionally Jick

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    What a bump

    I'm not reading those epic posts again, but KD is no an all around superstar. He's one of the two best players on the planet IMO and should pick up a few MVP awards along the way. If the discussion was will he be a superstar, obviously he answer is yes. He's still not a great defender, but he's certainly above average and can stick with most wings.

    Sports Empire Rookie of the Year 2007
    Sports Empire MVP 2008 & 2009

  23. #23
    Senior Member Pduh's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    No doubt Kevin Durant is a superstar but as gycax stated he is no all around superstar. He needs to continue to work on become a better defender, should probably watch some of old Scottie Pippen tapes watch how he play defense, and etc. Also it will be nice for him to get stronger cause I like to see him focus on balance his game on the offensive end, no doubt he can score at will he is a great jump shooter, but I would like to see him start working to be more aggressive attacking the basket, and for the guy his size, and his length I like to see him post up. Personally, I like to see him take the Lebron's approach aka go spend your off-season with Hakeem Olajuwon work out with him which he'll show him post up moves, and how to master it. Working out with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar wouldn't be a bad idea either can you imagine Kevin Durant who is 6'9, or 6'10 small forward learning, and mastering a hook shot? He have the length and it is difficult to defend the hook shot if he can master it with the hook shots it can be very effective for him, and learn some other post up moves which make the game much easier for him, and his team. He is only 24 years old, which is scary if can continue to work on his game, improve become a better defender, get stronger, and work some post moves watch out.

  24. #24
    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    I think it's safe to say that Durant has become a quality defensive player and true all-round superstar.

  25. #25
    Eccentric enigma Soulblazed's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Kevin Durant discussion~!

    Damn....Helluva thread.....Ironically, after all these years, it took Durant going to Golden State to really get people's attention defensively..He showed bits and pieces throughout his OKC tenure but damn.....During the Pelicans vs Warriors game, his emphatic clutch block on Davis shortly before Draymond's clutch defensive steal effectively ends this argument...
    @Damon what're your thoughts on Durant in terms of how he's contributed to Golden State's success so far-not just on defense but other facets he's improving as well since Kerr's wanting him to be more of a power forward at times?

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