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Thread: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Kurt Angle
    Look- 10
    Promo- 10
    In ring- 10 ...it's damn true

    Edge
    Look - 7
    Promo- 6
    In ring- 6

    Sheamus
    Look- 6
    Promo- 5
    In ring- 5

    Seth Rollins
    Look- 7
    Promo- 7
    In ring- 7 ...a perfect 7

    Dean Ambrose
    Look- 7
    Promo- 10 ...when he is allowed to go he's great on the mic...
    In ring- 7

    Roman Reigns
    Look- 9
    Promo- 0
    In Ring- 4 ...overrated in ring and mic skills suck... he has the look Vince wants...

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Late to the party but here's my take. (the brackets show how far off the average i was)Looks as though I'm saying Jake Roberts is the most underrated while Austin Aries is the most overrated KO coming in close second.

    Ric Flair: 22 (-5.4)
    Look 6 He always looked old to me even in the eighties he looked like a grandad.
    Promo 8.5 Very good but sometimes a bit rambling and has a nasally voice
    In Ring 7.5 I have to go with my honest assessment, I feel Ric is overrated. His selling annoys the shit out of me. His routine that he uses for 95% of all matches. He did have some greats though.

    Steve Austin: 26.5 (-0.2)
    Look 8 He looked like he would and could kick your ass
    Promo 9.5 excellent I'm even a fan of his heel work as the general of wcw he was downright scary. One of the better ones at comedy too. Who'd a thunk it.
    In Ring 9 I didn't appreciate him in his day because he wasn't flashy and didnt do moves. But 20 years later I can really appreciate everything else. Especially believability.

    Randy Savage: 26.5 (+0.1)
    Look 8 Didn't always look like the biggest when he was standing next to Hogan but he was a huge when next to a normal man.
    Promo 9.5 The only reason this isn't a 10 is because there's only one guy who is better than him on the stick.
    In Ring 8 Very good matches but some of them bore me a little.

    Mr. Perfect: 22 (-3.7)
    Look 6 Always thought he had a weird face.
    Promo 7 While the skits were very funny and he was above the rest of his peers he was never truly inspired on the mic. good not great.
    In Ring 9 I love watching Perfect in the ring

    Rick Rude: 23 (-2.6)
    Look 9 nuff sed
    Promo 7 good not great
    In Ring 7 good not great

    Eddie Guerrero: 21 (-4.6)
    Look 6 I'm not taking points off for height I thought he looked good for his size
    Promo 7 Yeah he was funny
    In Ring 8 tough one I was close to giving him a 9 but I had my doubts

    The Rock: 26.5 (+1.5)
    Look 10
    Promo 11 ok 10 no one else is getting a 10
    In Ring 6.5 really tough one. He called some good matches. But he never took a chair shot anywhere other than his hands and he is always clearly watching the referee count while being pinned. Silly gimmick finishers and as others have said a lot of his other moves were sloppy

    Bret Hart: 23.5 (-1.2)
    Look 9 He was the epitome of cool to me as a kid. I wanted those glasses so bad.
    Promo 5 distinctly average
    In Ring 9.5 very close to the best when he wanted to be

    Shawn Michaels: 20.5 (-3.8)
    Look 6
    Promo 4.5 slightly worse than Bret and very limited range in terms of character
    In Ring 10 He's gotta be the best in ring

    Chris Jericho: 23.5 (-0.8)
    Look 6
    Promo 9.5 He's up there but not quite Rock level
    In Ring 8 Solid

    Hulk Hogan: 22 (-2)
    Look 8 he always looked a bit ridiculous to me
    Promo 8 really tough one because i've never been a fan of his actual promos but I'm kind of counting his arm waving whipping the fans into a lather end to matches. There's no denying how effective they were on others.
    In Ring 6 Meh

    Razor Ramon: 22.5 (-1.1)
    Look 9.5 easily one of the best pecs the size of baby elephants
    Promo 6 not bad
    In Ring 7

    John Cena: 20 (-3.4)
    Look 7 big but I reckon I could take him
    Promo 6 He kind of buries people on the mic but only Rock can pull that off and not look like he's holding people back. Early cena thuganomics was dreadful.
    In Ring 7 Kind of hit and miss for me but some classics

    Triple H: 20 (-3)
    Look 8 Face you want to slap, the perfect heel
    Promo I am the gameeaaaah and I get a 7nnnaaah
    In Ring 5 good against greats average against average and bad against bad he depended on his opponents too much

    AJ Styles: 18 (-4.9)
    Look 6 soccer mom
    Promo 4 comes off as whiny and got absolutely buried on the mic by cena. I blame the scripts but so far nothing I like about his promo work. Needs to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
    In Ring 8 has great matches in this era made Roman look good. But still I can't justify going higher than 8.

    Ted DiBiase: 18.5 (-4.3)
    Look 5 nothing special
    Promo 6 again nothing special camp villain laughter
    In Ring 7.5

    Undertaker: 22.5 (-0.2)
    Look 10 The man has pulled of an undead wizard gimmick for 26 years through his look alone
    Promo 4 Never needed one
    In Ring 8.5

    Mankind: 24.5 (+2.4)
    Look 7 fat ass but he looked like he could mess you up.
    Promo 8.5 I'm a fan
    In Ring 9 he called one of the best matches of all time in the ring. He created moments that everyone remembers and I can't think of too many bad matches he had.

    Brock Lesnar:17 (-4.9)
    Look 8.5 scary dude
    Promo 1 barely remember what his voice sounds like
    In Ring 7.5

    Sting: 17.5 (-4.4)
    Look 8.5
    Promo 4
    In Ring 5 Like HHH his matches depended on the quality of his opponent

    Ricky Steamboat:19.5 (-2.4)
    Look 6
    Promo 6
    In Ring 7.5

    Daniel Bryan: 24.5 (+2.7)
    Look 7.5 I think his size is to his benefit. He looks like a face in trouble most of the time
    Promo 8 he's just a lovable goof who loves his wrestling
    In Ring 9 I think that's fair

    Big Van Vader: 21 (-0.7)
    Look 9 his look is his gimmick
    Promo 5 shouty
    In Ring 7 no ring technician or general. He had his match and it was your job to fit his style. Got an extra point for the moonsault.

    Harley Race: I just don't know enough to comment. I can only think of one match I've seen.

    Jake Roberts: 25 (+3.5)
    Look 7.5 looked like a sleazy villain who would kill you
    Promo 9 worked hand in hand with his look. You believed this guy was bad to the bone.
    In Ring 8.5

    Dusty Rhodes:19.5 (-1.6)
    Look 4.5 sorry but I just never got it.
    Promo 8
    In Ring 7

    Batista:19 (-1.6)
    Look 9 big mutha
    Promo 5
    In Ring 5

    Kevin Owens: 11 (-9.3)
    Look 2 looks like me with a beard
    Promo 3.5 I know people love his promo but I don't. whiny unbelievable unfunny. Awful on commentary keeps repeating himself. Actually writing this he just lost a couple points.
    In Ring 5.5 really hit and miss but far more misses than hits

    CM Punk: 19 (-1.2)
    Look 4 he's an average looking dude
    Promo 8 the best of his era probably
    In Ring 7

    Goldberg:13.5 (-6.7)
    Look 9.5 His look was his gimmick
    Promo 2
    In Ring 2

    Diesel: 18 (-1.9)
    Look 8
    Promo 6
    In Ring 4

    Magnum TA: I don't know enough

    Chris Benoit: 18.5 (-1.2)
    Look 8 short but always had a look of intent on his face.
    Promo 2 pretty awful can't think of a good one
    In Ring 8.5 excellent

    Lex Luger: 16 (-3.7)
    Look 8.5
    Promo 3
    In Ring 4.5

    Ultimate Warrior: 12 (-7.4)
    Look 9
    Promo 2
    In Ring 1

    Roddy Piper: 20.5 (+1.1)
    Look 5.5
    Promo 8
    In Ring 7

    Tully Blanchard: don't know enough

    DDP: 16 (-2.4)
    Look 6
    Promo 5
    In Ring 5

    Rey Mysterio Jr.: 18.5 (+0.2)
    Look 7 Like Bryan I think his height makes him stand out more and he used it to his advntage
    Promo 4
    In Ring 7.5

    Austin Aries: 8 (-10)
    Look 1 looks very average and his height doesn't help him unlike the previous.
    Promo 2 not a fan
    In Ring 5 decent enough

    Christopher Daniels: who?

    Dean Malenko: 8 (-7.7)
    Look 1 much the same as aries
    Promo 2 pretty awful
    In Ring 5 decent

    Randy Orton:15.5 (-1.6)
    Look 6
    Promo 4.5
    In Ring 5

    Andre the Giant:17 (+2)
    Look 10
    Promo 2
    In Ring 5

    Yokozuna: 16 (+2.4)
    Look 9
    Promo 2 he only made one noise but there was feeling in that grunt damn it
    In Ring 5

    Kurt Angle 25.5
    Look 8 looks like an olympic champ
    Promo 8.5 damn funny great heel also worked as a face though less effective
    In Ring 9 although he does suck

    Edge 8
    Look 2 tall but wiry not a good combination. Too many teeth.
    Promo 3 I'm not a fan got more groans than laughs from me
    In Ring 3 always prefered Christian. Worst spear in the history of spears

    Sheamus 17
    Look 7 big fella
    Promo 5 Meh
    In Ring 5 Meh

    Seth Rollins 15
    Look 5
    Promo 4
    In Ring 6

    Dean Ambrose 10
    Look 3 pretty bad
    Promo 3 might just be the scripts but.....more chicken shit than chicken salad
    In Ring 4 very hit and miss but way more miss than hit. predictable and boring.

    Roman Reigns 9.5
    Look 5 some people like it? He wears a chest protector. How can that be a good look?
    Promo 1 yeah son I went there dog
    In Ring 3.5

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Kurt Angle
    L: 8
    P: 10
    IR: 8

    Edge
    L: 6
    P: 8
    IR: 6

    Sheamus
    L: 7
    P: 4.5
    IR: 6.5

    Seth Rollins
    L: 7
    P: 7
    IR: 7

    Dean Ambrose
    L: 4
    P: 6
    IR: 3

    Roman Reigns
    L: 7.5
    P: 5.5
    IR: 7

  4. #129
    is not your buddy, guy.

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Rick Rude
    Look: 8.5
    Promo: 6
    IRA: 5
    Spoiler


    Mr. Perfect
    Look: 7
    Promo: 7
    IRA: 9
    Spoiler


    Jake Roberts
    Look: 8.5
    Promo: 8
    IRA: 4.5
    Spoiler


    Ted DiBiase
    Look: 6
    Promo: 8
    IRA: 5
    Spoiler


    Ricky Steamboat
    Look: 6
    Promo: 3
    IRA: 10
    Spoiler


    Brian Danielson/Daniel Bryan
    Look: 7
    Promo: 7
    IRA: 10
    Spoiler


    AJ Styles
    Look: 10
    Promo: 8
    IRA: 10
    Spoiler


    Samoa Joe
    Look: 9
    Promo: 5
    IRA: 9
    Spoiler


    Christopher Daniels
    Look: 8
    Promo: 6
    IRA: 9
    Spoiler


    Austin Aries
    Look: 9
    Promo: 8
    IRA: 8
    Spoiler


    Kevin Steen/Kevin Owens
    Look: 9
    Promo: 10
    IRA: 9.5
    Spoiler


    Kurt Angle
    Look: 10
    Promo: 9
    IRA: 10
    Spoiler


    Edge
    Look: 10
    Promo: 7
    IRA: 6
    Spoiler


    Sheamus
    Look: 8
    Promo: 7
    IRA: 6
    Spoiler


    Seth Rollins
    Look: 9
    Promo: 9
    IRA: 7
    Spoiler


    Dean Ambrose
    Look: 8
    Promo: 10
    IRA: 5
    Spoiler


    Roman Reigns
    Look: 10
    Promo: 1
    IRA: 7
    Spoiler

  5. #130
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Kurt Angle
    Look: 8. Looks like an Olympic athlete because he is an Olympic athlete. Simple but effective red, white and blue singlet enhanced his image.
    Promo: 8. One of the best goofy comedy promos ever. Great comic timing which is still evident in his most recent run as Raw GM. However his serious promos, while decent, are not at that top tier quality.
    In ring: 7. Extremely talented and athletic. Good moveset. I agree with the sentiment that he got too formula-heavy and had to be reined in by quality opponents for his classic matches, but I don't think the Angle formula is as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If I'd seen more of his 1998-2001 work he could score higher. But I haven't.

    Edge
    Look: 3. Very scrawny. Gets points for some of his attire choices. Early career long hair + shades (+ trenchcoat later) Edge, which worked well as a goofy heel and when transitioning into a singles babyface role. Then we have wildman long hair and beard Edge which fit his unhinged heel character very well.
    Promo: 7. Effective comedian and developed into an effective serious promo. However I feel as though he had more below average promos than he did great ones.
    In ring: 4. One of the worst WWE main eventers from an in-ring perspective. Horrible offense, a bit clunky, psychology is lacking. Giving him some points for his early tag work and being one of the Ladder/TLC pioneers. And the Undertaker streak match.

    Sheamus
    Look: 9. Great body, and stands out for obvious reasons. Gets points for making himself look as ridiculous as possible (e.g. mohawk) to get crowd heat.
    Promo: 4. This is going to sound bigoted, but I'll say it anyway: his accent makes him difficult for me to buy him as a serious/bully heel which is his primary role. His Irish accent is very jovial-sounding. That said, I actually think he does a pretty good job as a heel promo. His voice is more suited to a goofy comedian or a happy-go-lucky babyface. Unfortunately, Sheamus had such a run, and it didn't work very well. Doesn't mesh with his personality.
    In ring: 7. Instantly grabbed my attention when he debuted in WWECW and was one of my favourites to watch in his early years. He's fallen off the rails ever since he left the main event scene (after his great feud with Daniel Bryan). I'm guessing his poor and sometimes terrible booking killed his motivation. Even his current run with Cesaro has failed to rekindle my Sheamus love.

    Seth Rollins
    Look: 8. Great body, good hair, good attire.
    Promo: 3. No idea why he is given so much mic time. He has an annoying voice and isn't a particularly good promo.
    In ring: 4. He has the exact same problems as Kevin Owens. Wants to get all his shit in all the time, always to the detriment of the match. He is a tremendous athlete, which makes it all the more disappointing when he does an awesome move like a superplex into a Falcon Arrow as a near fall. Every match.

    Dean Ambrose
    Look: 1. Looks like a deadbeat. At least that fits his character to an extent. He can have a point for that.
    Promo: 8. When he's on, he's one of the best promos of the modern crop of wrestlers. Unfortunately he's not on a lot of the time. Has a habit of half-assing everything. Which I can understand. His natural comedy is excellent, which makes it obvious when WWE is spoonfeeding him lines that don't fit his personality. His best serious work is even better than his comedy. Reminds me of ECW Cactus Jack.
    In ring: 2. I said Edge is one of the worst WWE main eventers in the ring. Dean Ambrose is even worse. If The Great Khali didn't exist, he'd probably be the worst.

    Roman Reigns
    Look: 9. Same as Rollins, but he's a bit bigger. Might have got a 10 if he had some more appropriate attire instead of hoarding The Shield look after they disbanded.
    Promo: 5. He gets the job done. Probably would have scored him higher if WWE didn't expose his shortcomings when writing second rate Rock promos for him.
    In ring: 7. I've called Reigns great in the ring before, but I don't think that's correct. Potentially great is the right term. He's one of the best modern wrestlers when it comes to the little things. Great seller. Decent offense, but far too reliant on his two big moves. Has had a number of great matches in the WWE, more great matches in the last few years than almost all of the roster as far as I'm concerned. However he still produces more average/dull matches than great ones.

  6. #131
    I feel kinda invincible Kilgore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System


    Random WWF/E Champions:

    Kurt Angle: 26.7
    Seth Rollins: 19.9
    Edge: 18.8
    Roman Reigns: 17.9
    Sheamus: 17.4
    Dean Ambrose: 15.8

    Final Results:

    Ric Flair: 27
    Steve Austin: 26.7
    Kurt Angle: 26.7
    Randy Savage: 26.4
    The Rock: 25.1
    Eddie Guerrero: 25.1
    Mr. Perfect: 25
    Rick Rude: 24.8
    Bret Hart: 24.5
    Chris Jericho: 24.2
    Shawn Michaels: 24
    Hulk Hogan: 23.8
    Razor Ramon: 23.6
    John Cena: 23.1
    AJ Styles: 22.9
    Triple H: 22.8
    Undertaker: 22.7
    Daniel Bryan: 22.5
    Mankind: 22.3
    Ted DiBiase: 22
    Ricky Steamboat: 21.8
    Harley Race: 21.8
    Big Van Vader: 21.7
    Jake Roberts: 21.7
    Sting: 21.4
    Brock Lesnar: 21.2
    Dusty Rhodes: 20.9
    Samoa Joe: 20.8
    Batista: 20.5
    CM Punk: 20.1
    Kevin Owens: 20.1
    Seth Rollins: 19.9
    Diesel: 19.8
    Magnum TA: 19.9
    Chris Benoit: 19.6
    Roddy Piper: 19.5
    Goldberg: 19.4
    Lex Luger: 19.3
    Tully Blanchard: 19.3
    Christopher Daniels: 19.2
    Edge: 18.8
    Ultimate Warrior: 18.7
    Rey Mysterio Jr.: 18.4
    DDP: 18.2
    Austin Aries: 18
    Roman Reigns: 17.9
    Austin Aries: 17.9
    Sheamus: 17.4
    Randy Orton:17.1
    Dean Malenko: 16.6
    Dean Ambrose: 15.8
    Andre the Giant: 15.2
    Yokozuna: 13.9

    For your grades, thanks to:

    @Emperor @WrestlingRecap @bizil @The Icon @Baker @Big Pete @Da Gr8t I Is @ShinobiMusashi @PI @TheMaskedOtter @bischoffs brain @thelist @Sea Slug @CarlitoCool9111 @Ness @RT @PB @Wilderness

    Apologies to anybody that did grades I just missed. You were tallied, I just (might have) fucked up now copy and pasting credit.

    Knowing the accumulated scores, I stayed out of the grades not wanting to possibly grade as a reaction to what I was seeing. It's human nature to over or undercompensate to make things "right", whatever the fuck that means. For anybody that cares, this is my reaction to the final scores:

    Spoiler


    Maybe I'll bring this back if people are still into it. I'd like to get every WWF/E Champion (we actually got most of them) at some point. Maybe some more of the NXT generation. Some of the ladies too.
    Last edited by Kilgore; 05-31-2017 at 01:47 AM.


  7. #132
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Thanks for doing this Kilgore.

    The surprises for me were; Rick Rude I was even surprised at my own score for him and I agree that the stats do seem to lie a little. Daniel Bryan I thought would do much better, I know he's got some big fans here. Sheamus the other one who surprised me with my own score, he's actually hard to mark down I gave him a 5 for ring work, could maybe have dropped that to a 4 seeing as he has a history of injuring people. And finally Yoko and Andre who both did such big business that it seems criminal to have them at the bottom of the list. I think maybe we overrated people's looks a bit. Andre being 7'4 or whatever he truly was should probably get a higher score than Rick Rude's chiselled physique as anyone could achieve that with enough hard work and the right er... supplements. But what Andre had in terms of look was impossible to emulate.

    If I were to make one suggestion to St. Bret it would be that he swapped out promo for charisma. There's a ton of guys who had charisma but not a good promo because the aura they gave off meant they didn't need one. Bret had charisma but not a great promo, Undertaker, Andre, Warrior, Michaels, I did actually cheat a bit for Hogan and judged him on charisma as i found it impossible not to.

    If we ever do an addendum I have a few suggestions for guys I'd like to see done. Golden age guys like Lou Thesz, Buddy Rodgers, Killer Kowalski. Bruno Sammartino and Ivan Putski from the wwwf days and NXT guys, maybe an ECW one as well. Once again thanks to Kilgore for the hard work.

  8. #133
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    This is a great thread. I kept meaning to come back and finish my ratings but it seems like overtime I sat down to do it, life would come screaming my name. Anyway, I believe the ratings are pretty much spot on. At first glance there are some surprises. I think the biggest shocker would be Eddie Guerrero at number six overall. However, I believe it says more about the misuse of talent and a talents ability to improvise and change according to the times. Was Eddie underused in WCW? Sure, but that it also the reason he left for the WWF where his career would skyrocket. The Eddie of WWF 2004 is light years ahead of Eddie circa 1996 WCW in terms of character. He was a bit bulkier in later years, however, he was always cut in WCW. He in-ring ability was top notch all the way. While he is rated higher than most of the greats, he isn't close to the overall star level of a Hogan or Cena. Of course, this is why they call it Sports Entertainment.I believe the entertainment part of the sports entertainment equation is what lands The Rock so high up on the list. I think people can't help but remember he is by far the most succesful cross over star when they are grading him.

    I find it funny that Magnum TA made it so high up on the list. I never quite understood what the hype was as a kid and I understand it even less now. I'm shocked that his look was graded so well. He was trying to emulate Tom Selleck's schtick from the show Magnum PI, but he looked like a mid 80's porn star to me. He could't put together a coherent sentence in most of his promos.

  9. #134
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Fine work Kilgore, my own surprises were how well Razor Ramon and Rick Rude graded out when doing this. I guess as long as you're strong in two aspects (look and promo in this case) you can afford to be at least mediocre in the ring. No surprise that the John Cena pushback continues to be laughable. This is still my biggest mindfuck when visiting any message board who have him neck and neck with Angle and Bret as a great worker in a couple of poles I've seen. He's ahead of Ricky fucking Steamboat for Christ sake.

    I'll get to the next two batches once the WCW countdown is over. As for future installments the Golden Age could be tough since I would have to see more footage and interviews are especially rare. Japanese stars would also get hit hard on promos for obvious reasons. ECW and maybe a few other old territory greats could be interesting.

    Let's have the Dean have some say as well

  10. #135
    is not your buddy, guy.

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    This was great fun. Thanks for doing this.

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    This was fun. I'd like to see it come back once the WCW Countdown ends. There are so many wrestlers out there. We could theoretically keep this going for like a year. Maybe longer with breaks for other projects.

    I'm not super happy with all my ratings but I never am 100% satisfied.

    I also think the formula is somewhat flawed in that it tends to reward guys who are average across the board over wrestlers who are spectacular in one area (Malenko, Andre) and weak in others. Think I rated poor Dean Malenko the lowest of any wrestler when he is nowhere near the worst person we have covered. It goes back to what Kilgore wrote about Chris Candido in the ECW Countdown thread. Would you rather have a guy who is a 3/5 across the board or a 5/5 in one thing and mediocre in other areas? I'm with Kilgore in taking the guy who is spectacular in one aspect over the guy who is average in everything.

  12. #137
    Man with a Plan Ness's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Wish I voted more. I'd see the updates at work and forget to make a post at home. Sorry Ambrose it may have cost ya a few spots. Least ya beat Yoko!

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