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Thread: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

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    Senior Member The Icon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
    I don't remember The Analyst at all. I would have loved it in the early 90's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baker View Post
    Oh wow. I don't remember this either. Definitely would have been into it had I known. Other PWI mags would do version of this from time to time though. Maybe it got over and they decided to base an entire magazine on the concept?
    I could only find them at this local second hand bookstore which also had every magazine imaginable it seemed (four or five drugstore sized racks full, plus a back room for porn.) I only had maybe 5 issues, Hall, The Giant, RVD, Sabu and Austin were some of the wrestlers profiled that I can remember.

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    Senior Member bizil's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Ric Flair:
    Look: 9
    Promo: 10
    In Ring Ability: 10

    Harley Race:
    Look: 6
    Promo: 8
    In Ring Ability: 9

    Dusty Rhodes:
    Look: 3
    Promo: 10
    In Ring Ability: 6

    Tully Blanchard:
    Look: 6
    Promo: 8
    In Ring Ability: 9

    Magnum TA:
    Look: 8
    Promo: 7
    In Ring Ability: 7

    Looking at the names so far, its looking like Flair and Savage are the best all around wrestlers in their era. Even when it came to their look, both guys were always tanned and u could tell they hit the gym. And their robes and wardrobe enhanced it. So I was cool with giving both high marks for their look. Flair in particular because he was for ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES the Joe Namath of wrestling. Flair was one of the RARE icons (post 1984) to be a pop culture icon WITHOUT the WWE machine. If box office is the BOTTOM LINE, the technician I'm starting a company with is Flair EASILY. Because of all the elite technicians or ring generals, he was the best in terms of star power, swag and box office. And for the high flyer-aerial types, Savage would be my first pick in that same vein. I think the scores in this thread indicate that.

    If Vince brought JCP in '88 instead of Turner AND LET THEM be Vince's adult alternative to the WWF, Flair could have arguably become just as huge as Hogan mainstream wise in a different way. Because Vince could have started the Attitude Era 10 years prior with that JCP roster. Flair vs. Dusty could have been like Rock vs. Austin. Instead of D-X, u have the Horsemen. I realize Vince probably wouldn't have done it because of the demographic he was after. BUT if he chose to, that would have been EPIC what the machine could have done with Flair and Horsemen.

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    Moderator Emperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
    If you could only do Flair, that's fine. I'll be out of the 80's soon enough.
    Alrighty.

    Ric Flair
    Look: 9. He's not the first wrestler to wear a fancy robe to the ring, but he made it work better than anybody before or after. Great body (in his prime of course), great hair, what's not to like? Well, he has a bit of an ugly face. It's really not a big deal, but it stops him getting the perfect 10.
    Promo: 9. Very charismatic, very good speaker, very engaging, and can do a variety of styles. He sometimes goes a bit OTT which I find a bit off-putting at times, but again, product of the times, I'm too new school blah blah.
    Ring: 9. I never thought Flair was the best wrestler/worker ever, can get a ***** match with a broomstick, and all that stuff everybody likes to say. But he's obviously an extremely talented wrestler who has proven that he can work a compelling match against any type of opponent (or even the same opponent multiple times) on any given night. Why doesn't he get the full 10? For me there's a class of wrestlers who are at least as good as Flair in the ring and I find more entertaining to watch in general.

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    Still Relevant! Ness's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Just wanna say Baker's last ranked post is one of my favorites of the year. White guy afro. Yes sir.

    Got nothing to add as I could only fairly give Hogan and Savage cred.

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    I’m late to the game just like Shin, so feel free not to include my ratings in the average grades for the Rock ‘N’ Wrestling gang, but being a WWF guy first and foremost, I feel duty-bound to rate my first set of pro wrestling heroes. Plus ,I’m bored at work…


    Hulk Hogan
    Look: 10
    Promo: 9
    In-Ring: 8


    Arguably the quintessential pro wrestler look for this era and even eras beyond Rock ‘N’ Wrestling as well. I’m not docking points for the receding hairline, as the skullet was somehow even more pro wrestling than a full head of hair. And then that iconic mustache perfectly complemented the hairdo. In a way, the receding hairline and impressive facial hair was a not-so-subtle subtle wink to the fact that wrestlers of this era were all clearly on roids.


    Speaking of roids, those 24-inch pythons and Hogan’s generally thick, muscular build and tall frame all worked together in perfect harmony to exude this vibe that Hulk truly embodied his ring name. He came across as the perfect hybrid of a carnival strongman and road warrior rockstar athlete who’s on the go too often to watch his diet but not too often to hit the gym and tanning bed. To top everything off, Hogan’s perfect bronze tan made his bleach blonde skullet and ‘stache pop; matched his character’s Venice Beach beachbum background; and made him look good under the bright lights of the WWF.


    As far as his ring attire, Hulk appropriated all the best bits of Billy Graham’s groundbreaking style (boas and bandanas) and then took them to the next level through some genius branding by turning red and yellow into his trademark team colors.


    Promo-wise, Hogan could be a bit repetitive and exhausting at times… but he never lacked in intensity, and he was never boring. His intensity always made for engaging and generally compelling interviews. And his non-coke-fuelled interviews and vignettes were a whole lot of fun too. He was a main stream media crossover darling for a reason. I probably should give him a 10 here, but I reserve Perfect 10s in the Promo category for guys who have at least one standout all-time great promo that is memorable to this day. Hogan never really had that one standout all-time great promo during this era… not to me, or at least not that I can remember right now. Perhaps this is just a consequence of so much of his promo work seeming a bit samey during this era?.


    In the ring, Hogan is underrated and underappreciated IMO… which is why I might be overrating him with an 8 here, but fuck it.


    Randy Savage
    Look: 9
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 10


    I docked a point in the Look category primarily because I felt hesitant to give Savage a Perfect 30 rating... but, really, he is as close to a perfect wrestler as it gets for me. He merged the wildman/madman/caveman look with the neon hair metal look perfectly, especially once he evolved to the long tights and tassels (but I think this version of his look was more toward the ass-end of the Rock ‘N’ Wrestling Era). Savage’s size during the Rock ‘N’ Wrestling Era, especially in comparison to his peers, was the main reason for the point docking. If Savage could’ve somehow blended his 1992 looks and his roid-inflated WCW-era build with his 1987 in-ring ability, I think he could’ve been the face to run the place during the Rock & Wrestling Era and possibly even had us all saying: “Hogan who?”


    As far as promo work, no one else in pro wrestling has ever been able to consistently captivate me on the stick like Savage. Well, that might be hyperbole… but Savage is among the tippy-top, best-of-the-best elites when it comes to promo work. As good as he was in the ring, I could be content just watching Savage cut promos all day.


    And then to complete the total package, Savage could go in the ring. He could brawl, fly, get technical… he could do it all. I don’t care about the behind-the-curtain aspects. If Savage obsessed over every detail of his match and wanted to plan it our and rehearse things beforehand until he had everything memorized… what do I care as a fan as long as the final in-ring product is great and entertaining?


    The more I think about it, the more I realize how much I love Savage. In fact, considering how great both guys were as far as being total packages, Savage and Flair feuding in the WWF just seemed so right that I’m always hardpressed to rebook WM8 in order to do Hogan/Flair. Savage/Flair is just such a true clash of total package all-time greats. I really should deep-dive into their WCW feud.


    Roddy Piper
    Look: 5.5
    Promo: 7.5
    In-Ring: 6.5


    Take away the kilt, and Piper had really nothing going for him in the looks department to make him stand out from the average joe (or at least a reasonably fit average joe). But the kilt was so fitting and worked so well that Piper gets some points back to bump him up to slightly above average status. Plus, he wasn’t skinny fat. Skinny fat is probably worse than fat fat as far as looks go.


    For promos, Piper could be hot or cold. When he was hot, he was on fire. However, when he was cold, we could be grating and hard to understand. On the overall though, he had a unique sound and rhythm that made his promo work iconic… so I’m going with a more positive ranking here.


    In the ring, I think Piper tends to be underrated and underappreciated (just like Hogan) as far as what he could actually do when he wanted to play ball. I’m not sure how much to hold it against Piper that he was purportedly difficult to work when it came to doing the J.O.B. ...but whatever. It was a different era back then, and you had to protect your character. In an environment geared more toward sports entertainment, a motivated Piper could certainly hold his own and prove himself to be average or a bit above average in the ring.


    Andre the Giant
    Look: 3
    Promo: 2
    In-Ring: 1


    I might generate some controversy here, but I’m going to go hard on Andre. He had a terrible look during this era, IMO. Baker helped Andre earn back some points in this category by planting the idea in my head that maybe Andre was purposefully going for a big, ugly, stinky giant look (vs. a strong, powerful, intimidating giant look). Knowing his look was impacted by his condition and the deterioration of his body, I feel bad taking such a negative stance… but man, Andre read more immobile lumbering oaf than gigantic monstrous threat in the Rock & Wrestling Era.


    To keep piling on the poor bastard, I give him a point back out of pity in the Promo category since English wasn’t his native tongue. But man… coupled with bass tone of his voice, the dude was hard as hell to understand. Aside from vague grunts and growls, it’s hard to come across as truly menacing if you can’t verbalize a specific threat or intent. Thank god for Bobby the Brain during Andre’s feud with Hogan. I’ll throw Andre another pity point for his work in the Princess Bride.


    In the ring, it’s clear that the Rock ‘N’ Wrestling Era wasn’t the 70s or even early 80s for Andre. I really wonder if Andre had any business being in the ring in any sustained capacity during this era. Most evidence suggests that he didn’t. He was so limited, and his offense looked terrible (despite being shoot stiff… which makes it all the worse).


    The Ultimate Warrior
    Look: 10
    Promo: 8
    In-ring: 6


    Warrior was the more flamboyant and shredded version of Hogan in terms of physique and ring attire. Add the fuller head of hair, face paint, and tassels… you end up with an arguably more perfect Perfect 10 look. I’m not sure whether to include the ring entrance in the Look category or In-Ring category, but since it’s not technically part of the bell-to-bell action, I’m leaning toward Look, and thus adding an exclamation point to the Perfect 10 rating..


    Warrior’s promo work is comparable to Piper’s to me. Very hot and cold, but with a dash of the Hogan/Savage intensity, which helped to make the cold promos at least somewhat engaging and entertaining from a so-bad-it’s-good standpoint. Meanwhile, the hot promos were the stuff of pro wrestling legend.


    For his In-ring work, Warrior gets bumped up a few points for proving competent enough to be involved in some all-time classic encounters with Hogan, Savage, and Rude. However, without an all-time great opponent to help make the match, Warrior’s in-ring work would probably only earn him a 2 or 3. He generally looked uncoordinated, clunky, clumsy… Despite his physique, he never came across as particularly powerful or explosive or strong (I thought his gorilla presses looked terrible more often than not). The mismatch between his physique and offense always stood out to me, and his offense was also the bad kind of stiff (like Andre’s).





    And now to catch up to everyone else…


    Ric Flair
    Look: 7.5
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 10


    Flair’s look was iconic in its own way but certainly not great. The NWA clearly didn’t place the same kind of emphasis on svelte physiques that the WWF did. Flair’s robes earn him quite a few brownie points. Others have worn robes before and after, but elaborate ring robes are synonymous with Flair in the way that skullets and handlebar mustaches are synonymous with Hogan.


    Flair suffers a bit from wearing the standard-issue NWA uniform; i.e., trunks and boots with cursive initials. But at least he pulled it off well. In fact, he pulled it off so well, that in my mind everyone else was just trying to imitate Flair by donning the same boring gear.


    Flair’s physique wasn’t the greatest, even when he was younger… and I guess some of that is to blame on the plane crash… but in an ironic twist, his saggy skin had this weird effect of making it seem like Flair never aged. Flair honestly looked no different to me when he returned to the WWF in 2002 than he did when he was wrestling Ricky Steamboat in 1989. He had a big snout and a snaggletooth problem, which made it hard to totally buy him as a playboy lady slayer. But then again, what do I know about being a playboy lady slayer? His platinum blonde hair, especially when he’d blade and really get the crimson gushing, made for some epic visuals.


    Flair’s promo work was up there with Savage as far as being the tip-top best-of-the-best. Probably on my pro wrestling promo Mt. Rushmore.


    Flair’s in-ring work was also up there with Savage’s. He gets the rinse-and-repeat, same-match criticism… but I don’t think that’s fair or accurate. He’s been involved in so many all-time classics with such a variety of opponents that his GOAT status in the ring is hard to even question, much less dispute.


    Harley Race
    Look: 5.5
    Promo: 7
    In-Ring: 8.5


    Harley had an odd look to me, but it definitely worked for him. He was like some tough guy hybrid of cowboy biker bad ass and pirate (if there were American pirates in the 50s and 60s). He looked as tough as he was, and/but wasn’t pretty to look at. Very fitting old school look.


    Promo-wise, Race was very serviceable. Not an all-time standout great, but solidly better than average.


    Harley’s in-ring stuff was very influential (at least as far as influencing pro wrestlers to come up after him), and his work and the way he carried himself oozed this gritty legitimacy and toughness… which was probably crucial during his heyday as a worker and top champ. His appreciation for the sport of wrestling came through in his work, and he was involved in his fair share of classics. Not sure which I’d fear more: one of Harley’s knees or one of his headbutts.


    Dusty Rhodes
    Look: 6.5
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 8.5


    Dusty had the quintessential jovial fat guy look, but he also had just enough of an edge to his appearance (thanks to some of those scars) that you didn’t question him when it came time to get serious. His look somehow echoed the charisma. I preferred his pre-polka dot look, but since this is clearly geared toward the NWA, I guess that the polka dots are a non-issue. Dusty’s blond hair, just like Flair’s, really helped to sell those epic blade jobs.


    Dusty’s promo work was masterful. He was so charismatic. He could spin a yarn and take you on a trip with the stories he’d tell. He really reeled you in. I debated not giving him a Perfect 10, but when I stopped to think about it, I realized I was being a fool. Dusty could be just as enthralling on the stick as Flair and Savage, and he was so just as consistent during the era in focus.


    In the ring, Dusty was surprisingly mobile for a chubby guy. He knew how to structure matches and comport himself between the ropes and around ringside to really get some emotional stories across quite well. Dusty wasn’t the best in all aspects of in-ring work, but he could always draw the fans in regardless and entertain like a motherfucker. Entertainment oftentimes counts for a lot more than technical perfection.


    Tully Blanchard
    Look: 4
    Promo: 6
    In-Ring: 8


    Tully had an average joe build. Again, physiques clearly weren’t a top priority in NWA. And on top of his body, I hated Tully’s face. There was just this kinda pinched, rodent-like squinty-ness to it. I dunno. I can’t tell whether I’m rating him too harshly, not harshly enough, or fairly in the Look category. Promo-wise he was certainly serviceable, but he doesn’t have any standout promos that I’m aware of… so it’s hard to rate him too high above average. And it probably doesn’t help being a Horseman and overshadowed by Ric Flair and Arn Anderson.


    Magnum TA
    Look: 6
    Promo: 5
    In-Ring: 5


    I’m throwing out some bullshit ratings for the Promo and In-Ring categories because I’m not really that familiar with Magnum’s work in these areas. I figure if he was pegged as the next big thing for NWA though, he had to be at least middle-of-the-road in both of these categories. Looks-wise, he had a decent enough physique (especially for the NWA) but his hairdo and ‘stache weren’t as timeless and iconic as Hogan’s. Despite loving Magnum PI, Magnum TA felt like a fad-inspired wannabe knockoff. Honestly, I think Magnum wasn’t too many years away from abruptly feeling super dated in the looks department.

  6. #31
    I feel kinda invincible Kilgore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System


    NWA Starrcade Era Results:

    Ric Flair: 27.4
    Harley Race: 21.4
    Dusty Rhodes: 20.6
    Magnum TA: 19.8
    Tully Blanchard: 19.4

    I'll be putting all the results in the first post of the thread highest to lowest average.


    Next Batch: WWF Attitude Era:

    Stone Cold Steve Austin:
    The Rock:
    Undertaker:
    Mankind:
    Triple H:


  7. #32
    Moderator Emperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Kilgore, where are your scores and comments? Your input is required!

    Steve Austin
    Look: 10. Perfect look for his character. Looks exactly like the take-no-shit badass beer swinging redneck he portrays. Bald head and goatee look is perfect. Generic attire but I don't see what else would work. Leather vest is great.
    Promo: 10. I'd give him at least a 9 on his ECW promos alone, then he went to WWE and cut some of the industry's most famous promos. Could do different forms of serious, comedy, and mixed at a very high level.
    In ring: 9. Not the most versatile worker, nor did he have a particularly impressive moveset, but he's one of the very best at knowing how to get the most mileage out of the least work. This was especially emphasised after the neck break. Multiple GOATC matches with Bret, Rock, HHH and many others I'm forgetting. Also has the best finisher of all time, a huge notch in his cap.

    The Rock
    Look: 5. Rock looks pretty plain. In the late 90s he wasn't particularly muscular. Plain attire. Plain hair. Plain face. Average look all around. No wonder he didn't stand out until he unleashed his unrivalled charisma. He had an undeniable presence, but that was due to his natural charisma, not his look.
    Promo: 9. Teenage Emperor would have given Rock 11. I worshipped Rocky as a youngster, mainly because of his amazing talking skills. He had a way of running down his opponents that will never be matched. He could do the most goofy shit, say the lamest insults, and somehow make them work with a god given gift of the gab. As far as promos go, Rock's flaw is versatility. He can do a bells-and-whistles Rock promo extremely well, but anything else he falters a little. Austin can't do comedy quite as well as Rock, but he can do everything else a lot better.
    In ring: 6. Again, teenage me would have given Rock a much higher score, but as the years went on I saw that Rock isn't all that special in the ring. He just had some fantastic dance partners. Not to say that Rock couldn't work, or was carried all the time, it just feels like his opponents were the main contributors in his best matches. Speaking of which, what are Rock's great matches? vs Austin at WM17 for sure, and I'd give both guys equal credit for that. vs HHH Ironman is another (at least personally). Struggling to think of others. His list of classic matches is one of the shortest of the GOAT wrestlers.

    The Undertaker
    Look: 10.
    Promo: 6. Perhaps underrated, in the sense that he's not a bad promo and needs a mouthpiece all the time, but he's not particularly good either. He's passable. Just above average.
    In ring: 10. Hell of a worker. In his early days he made a slow, lumbering, invincible zombie into one of the most compelling wrestlers of the time. Then his character grew more human and so did his wrestling ability. He was also to display freakish speed and agility for a man size. Constantly evolved his style, adapting to the times and changing things up, producing classic matches in every phase of his career. Before I typed these words I had his score at 8. As I typed, I bumped it to 9. Then to 10. Can't think of any major flaws in his ring work.

    Mankind
    Look: 7. Well-designed attire and a crazy character can't completely mask a pretty lousy body.
    Promo: 10. My scores differ for Attitude Era only Mankind and entire career Foley, and only now do I realise that I'm not sure which one I should use for the thread. But I've been going on whole careers so far (Taker's promo/ring scores would be lower if only considering the Attitude Era), so I'll stick to it. If I'm missing the point of the thread completely then I'll revise my scores. I actually have very little experience with Attitude Era Foley's promos. I know his ECW stuff and most of his post-Attitude stuff (does commissioner Foley count as Attitude Era?) and that's an easy 10.
    In ring: 5. Not athletic in the slighest and pretty clunky, but he compensates for that in psychology and character work. Early WWF Mankind is one sadistic motherfucker. Disturbing to watch him wrestle sometimes. However his physical limitations translate to match quality limitations. It's no coincidence that almost all of his most highly-regarded matches are gimmicky spectacles.

    Triple H
    Look: 9. Excellent look in all aspects. Great body, great hair, great attire, great facials. Yet I can't put him on the same score as Austin and Taker. There's something missing. Some sort of intangible.
    Promo: 7. Not a big expert on specifically his Attitude Era promos, but generally speaking, while he tends to speak at great length, when he's on, you can't take your eyes and ears away for however long he's speaking. But he isn't always on, so his speeches can become a drag. Also lacks variety. He only has one style of promo, but he generally does it very well. Very menacing, intelligent and cerebral.
    In ring: 7. I think HHH is underrated in the ring. His style is more old school than his contemporaries, so it's a bit surprising (even to me) that I rate it so highly, but he's like Austin in that he's so good at getting the most out of every little thing. Dare I say he's even a bit better at the little things than Austin (although that's based on a much larger body of work). His main drawback is that he lacks variety and hasn't evolved that much over time, although his wrestling does incorporate various styles: brawling, power, technical. He's also not a very good babyface worker. I actually gave him a score of 9 at first but when making those last two observations I knocked it down a bit.

  8. #33
    It's all in the reflexes Baker's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor View Post
    Kilgore, where are your scores and comments? Your input is required!
    Seconded.

    *I'm only rating these guys based on their Attitude Era (97-01) stuff.

    Steve Austin

    Look- 8- Sometimes the wrestler makes the look. Austin was in good shape but let's face it. On the surface he's a less jacked Nikita Koloff with blander attire. But boy did Austin ever make it work. The shaved head + 90s goatee look sported by at least five barroom 'badasses' every night in every bar across America became The Steve Austin. Fwiw early Austin would also score at least an 8.

    Promos- 10- Duh.

    In Ring- 8.5- Had his share of duds mixed in with the classics, and could be rather one dimensional after Owen broke his neck, but he came back with a vengeance to have a 10/10 2001 to boost his overall score.

    The Rock

    Look- 9- I deducted a point for his bush league tracksuit phase. Yeah, I know the reason behind it but it was still a bush league look. Aside from that, Rock had a great look. Particularly in his early days with the fabulous sideburns and expensive shirts. Also gets a bonus point for making the Brahma Bull his thing.

    Promos- 10- Rock had "it" on the mic more than anybody ever. I'm not going to say he's THE GOAT because his material often sucked. He'd ramble on about nothing and throw out insults that would have got him laughed off a 5th grade playground. But Rock made even the lamest material work through his delivery and charisma. I know it's cliche but Rock really could make reading the phone book entertaining.

    In Ring- 6- Rock is a weird one in the ring. I don't think he was particularly good. His execution was terrible. Maybe the worst of any main eventer ever. WOAT spinebuster. Laughable Owen-style belly to belly on running opponents. Scott Keith or somebody like that used to call his Sharpshooter the Shitshooter and a more accurate description has yet to be devised. I didn't even like his big arms flailing punches all that much. And I hated the way he'd put his hand up to cover his head on back suplexes like a wimp. He wasn't even a big bumper and a good blader like most his AE contemporaries. Yet I found myself enjoying Rock matches in spite of his many, many flaws more often than not. So even if Rock was all smoke & mirrors in the ring I can go no lower than a 6.

    Undertaker

    Look- 9- 'Taker had a 10/10 look for most of his career and even achieved the elusive 11/10 look during his Evil Wizard Ministry phase. But then there's BikerTaker (aka: older looking Brian Lee with a bigger gut) which brings him down to a 9.

    Promos- 7- This is probably too high but the promo on leaving Big Show stranded in the desert brings him up from a 4 all the way to a 7.

    In Ring- 5- 'Taker was all over the place in ring wise during the Attitude Era. Did some of his best work in the early AE through Summerslam 98. Then fell off the cliff with many high profile duds. (his post-AE in ring work would get a 9 or 10)

    Mankind

    Look- 6- Another case of a wrestler making the look work for them.

    Promos- 10- The third 10 of our AE batch and the best of the three imo. Foley had incredible range when it came to promos.

    In Ring- 9- Best ever at the hardcore big bumping style he popularized but only gets a 9 instead of a 10 because he was one dimensional.

    Triple H

    Look- 8- Was nothing special during the early AE but had a fabulous 10/10 look by the time it was over. Dude broke out the chainmail AND the combo leather/jean jacket. Fabulous fashion sense. Also got jacked and had spectacular rocker hair (early Hunter Hearst Helmsley was the favorite of a female friend of mine entirely because of his hair).

    Promos- 8- I didn't personally like his DX stuff but I also can't deny the fact that it was over. His 2000 "Game" stuff worked for me even if it did get old later on. Even then, 2000 HHH was very much a poor man's Larry Zbyszko. But "poor man's Larry Zbyszko" is still better than most.

    In Ring- 8- Similar to look. He started the AE off as a solid but unspectacular in ring performer- a 6/10. Then he leveled up to become a 10/10 in 2000. Split 'em down the middle and we get another 8.
    Last edited by Baker; 05-17-2017 at 07:59 PM.

  9. #34
    The Wrestle-O-Pedia TheMaskedOtter's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Steve Austin

    Look: 8--It worked but never anything phenomenal
    Promos: 10--He could talk
    In-Ring Ability: 4.--He was never the same after Owen dropped him on his head.


    The Rock

    Look-10
    Promo-10
    In-Ring--5, You can look the look and talk the talk but at some point the bell does have to go a ring a ding ding


    The Undertaker

    Look--7. He didn't age well
    Promo--7
    In-Ring--Wait, hold on...ring ring....let me grab that call....ring ring....Hey, it's the Undertaker calling it in as a 3.

    Mankind

    Look--3. The wrestler shouldn't look like someone who should only get in the arena by buying a ticket.
    Promo--5. Hello (Whatever City He's In). He went from a great talker to saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...etc.

    In-Ring-- a negative 6. When thou sucketh in the ring thou becometh a stunt man.

    Triple H

    Look--7...a roided guy with a big schnooze
    Promo--6
    In-Ring--8

    Marrying the bosses daughter to guarantee yourself a job until the messy divorce (see Spike Huber) genius.

  10. #35
    Senior Member bizil's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Steve Austin

    Look- 8-

    Promos- 10

    In Ring- 8

    The Rock

    Look- 10

    Promos- 10

    In Ring- 6

    Undertaker

    Look- 9-

    Promos- 5

    In Ring- 7

    Mankind

    Look- 6

    Promos- 10

    In Ring- 7

    Triple H

    Look- 9

    Promos- 8-

    In Ring- 8-

    In a perfect world, HBK and Bret would stayed in the thick of things along with these legends for the duration of the Attitude Era. In ring wise, I think they would given the era two of the greatest all time in ring workers. And as a total package, HBK was to the 90's what Flair and Savage were in the 80's in many respects. And even in Bret's case, he was probably a bit underrated in terms of being a total package. Not on the level of HBK-Flair-Savage in my opinion, but he would rank at his best in that 23-24 range possibly.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Quote Originally Posted by Baker View Post
    I'm glad to see this become a regular thing. I was hoping it would.

    Ric Flair

    Look- 7- Wasn't the most jacked guy in the world, and his wrestling attire was rather bland, but his iconic entrance robes & hair (at least until his bad haircut phase) give him a boost.

    Promos- 10- One of the greatest. Extremely versatile on the mic.

    In Ring- 10- The GOAT

    Harley Race

    Look- 3- His skinny fat guy physique is a 1 all the way but occasionally rocking one of the finest white guy afros in existence along with The Lemmy (still known as The Harley Race in my neck of the woods) gives him a boost. The shitty, homemade-looking sailor-style tattoos also work for an old school badass like Race.

    Promos- 4 (incomplete)- A cop out. Haven't seen/don't remember much Race on the mic. My mental image of him is bland "I'm gonna kick yer butt" old school rasslin' promos delivered with a gruff voice. Of course I may be wrong.

    In Ring- 8- I like Race in the ring. His methodical style works for me. Also had some cool moves for his era (an early suplex master!) along with a few neat signature bumps.

    Dusty Rhodes

    Look- 2- A fat guy who inexplicably didn't wrestle as a Fat Guy. And let's face it, he was also ugly. His face always seemed to look like he just got done fighting Tyson. Gets a 2 instead of a 1 because I liked his cowboy style wrestling boots.

    Promos- 10- One of the greats.

    In Ring- 4 (incomplete)- Haven't watched many Dusty matches over the past decade or so. Had one of Flair's weaker series' but I remember a solid outing with Lex and his match with Windham at Great American Bash '88 is a master class in doing a lot with a little.

    Tully Blanchard

    Look- 2- Extremely generic.

    In Ring- 7- Wrestled like a heel. Was good in tags. Had a legendary brawl with Magnum. But lacked the pizzazz to rate higher. Didn't do much cool stuff outside of the Slingshot Suplex, which wasn't even THAT cool.

    Promos- 6 (incomplete)- Remember him being an adequate heel promo but, again, it's been a long time.

    Magnum TA

    Look- 6- It worked for that time and place.


    Promos- 4 (incomplete)- Looks like 4 is my standard grade when I have no clue.

    In Ring- 6- Good brawler with great babyface fire.
    LMAO, I don't know if you intended that to be funny, but it was.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Hulk Hogan

    Look-7-Early in his career he looked good except for the steroid induced balding. Later, he over used tanning lotion ignored to cover up the muscle he lost when forced to stop using the juice.
    Promos-9- His promos never did a thing for me. However, other kids loved them, so 9 is my objective vote.
    In-ring-3- Its here where his presence nearly made me quit watching. He was terrible, but so were a bunch of other big guys of the era. However, he always had a world title, so I expect more. His selling was cartoonish and he only had like four offensive moves. I'm giving him a 3 for his early Japan work.

    Ric Flair
    Look-7-He looked great until he took off his shirt. He always had an issues with his pecs.
    Promos-10-There was never anyone better.
    In-Ring-9-He could be a bit repetitive at times, but i'm giving him a partial pass because of the insane schedule he worked.

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Steve Austin
    Look: 8
    Promos: 10
    In-Ring: 7


    The Rock
    Look-8
    Promo-8
    In-Ring-7


    The Undertaker
    Look-10
    Promo-9
    In-Ring-9

    Mankind
    Look-7
    Promo-10
    In-Ring- 8

    Triple H
    Look-6
    Promo-6
    In-Ring-7

  14. #39
    I feel kinda invincible Kilgore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System


    Steve Austin: 26.3
    The Rock: 24.7
    Mankind: 24.1
    Triple H: 23.4
    Undertaker: 22.1

    First bit of scoring controversy. Due to:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaskedOtter View Post
    In-Ring-- a negative 6. When thou sucketh in the ring thou becometh a stunt man.
    -6 is not 0-10, so I couldn't count Otter's Mankind pick. Otter, if you want to change that to a zero, I'll update the score, and you can get a good laugh watching Foley nosedive in the standings.

    Next Batch: The New Generation:

    Bret Hart
    Shawn Michaels
    Diesel
    Razor Ramon
    Yokozuna
    Last edited by Kilgore; 05-19-2017 at 02:52 PM. Reason: Updating Scores


  15. #40
    It's all in the reflexes Baker's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    Dave recently made the comment that back in the day, Dusty had a much bigger female following than Roman Reigns does today and a large part of that comes down to his ability to cut a promo.
    Dusty still had a large female following in the late 90s-early 2000s. He had a segment on a Nitro from that era (can't remember exactly when) that did huge ratings with female fans compared to the rest of the show. The running gag at whatever forum I was on at the time was "chicks dig the splotch."

    I'll rate the New Generation guys after work tomorrow.

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaskedOtter View Post
    Steve Austin

    Look: 8--It worked but never anything phenomenal
    Promos: 10--He could talk
    In-Ring Ability: 4.--He was never the same after Owen dropped him on his head.


    The Rock

    Look-10
    Promo-10
    In-Ring--5, You can look the look and talk the talk but at some point the bell does have to go a ring a ding ding


    The Undertaker

    Look--7. He didn't age well
    Promo--7
    In-Ring--Wait, hold on...ring ring....let me grab that call....ring ring....Hey, it's the Undertaker calling it in as a 3.

    Mankind

    Look--3. The wrestler shouldn't look like someone who should only get in the arena by buying a ticket.
    Promo--5. Hello (Whatever City He's In). He went from a great talker to saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...etc.

    In-Ring-- a negative 6. When thou sucketh in the ring thou becometh a stunt man.

    Triple H

    Look--7...a roided guy with a big schnooze
    Promo--6
    In-Ring--8

    Marrying the bosses daughter to guarantee yourself a job until the messy divorce (see Spike Huber) genius.
    ...your whole post is retarded... Not a clue...

  17. #42
    Senior Member The Icon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    I'll get to the Attitude Era eventually....

    Bret Hart- Total: 23

    Look: 6- Slightly above average, he had some definition, plus the pink and black attire and glasses made him standout.

    Promo: 7- Got progressively better as time went on, his babyface champion promos are still rather underrated.

    In-Ring: 10- He made carry jobs into classics, adapted well to different styles. He always made sure to accentuate the best out of his opponents. I had to leave room for guys like Bret which is why I gave Savage and Flair less than 10 ratings.

    Shawn Michaels- Total: 22

    Look: 7.5- Had a look that matched his persona I'll say that much.

    Promo: 7- Felt forced at times but he had his moments. A 1 for public speaking though out of character.

    In-Ring: 7.5- A true report card comment, he had all the tools but needs to apply himself better.

    Diesel- Total: 19.5

    Look: 8.5- Solid tall man build, the all black made him more intimidating.

    Promo: 6- I just realized I'm not all too familiar with prime Diesel's promos, especially as champion. I'm just going by what I remember from 1994. He would reach his full potential in WCW though.

    In-Ring: 5- Most everything looked high impact but his powerbomb was inconsistent. He needed certain opponents to make him look good and mask his deficiencies in match structure and storytelling.

    Razor Ramon- Total: 25

    Look: 9- He had a remarkable transformation going from a Magnum TA clone to Cuban exile, he always had a tremendous physique. The gold and different colored attire also helped.

    Promo: 8.5- Not quite at Scott Hall WCW level yet but still was one of the better stick workers of the New Generation. He had good intimidation factor as Razor with some humor peppered in.

    In-Ring: 7.5- GOAT for worked punches, needed to tone down the selling at times but he was great all around for a big man.

    Yokozuna- Total: 14

    Look: 6- Went overboard with his weight but it is still one of the most memorable sights in wrestling for me personally watching his debut live. I never saw anything quite like him before or since.

    Promo: 1- I never really remember him speaking since he had two mouth pieces to do that for him. His demeanor alone just sold you on his intent though so words weren't necessary from him. He had a good mean mug.

    In-Ring: 7- Amazing mobility in his prime coupled with great big man selling to make his opponent look like Superman made him easy to work with. Plus the Banzai Drop was murder.
    Last edited by The Icon; 05-19-2017 at 05:13 AM.

  18. #43
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Bret Hart
    Look - 8. How can you mark somebody down when they pull off the colour pink so well and still look like a bad-ass?
    Promo - 7. Wasn't the most charismatic wrestler of all-time, but Bret did a good job of getting fans to believe and relate to everything he was saying.
    In Ring - 10. The Best There Was, The Best There Is, The Best There Ever Will Be. I used to think Bret was full of shit when he'd say it in WCW, but Bret maybe the best WWF Champion of all-time.

    Shawn Michaels
    Look - 6. I'm not sure if the David Lee Roth look was the best idea in the mid-90s. He had the looks of a television star, but I thought his wardrobe was unneccesarily divisive. Unlike Bret who was able to pull it off, Shawn's look always seemed like an easy target.
    Promo - 6. I don't think Shawn really became a good promo until his D-Generation X run but his voice and just how unusual it is on him makes him above average for me.
    In Ring - 9. There are certain aspects of Shawn's performance that irk me, but I can't be overly negative here and the guy did put on some magnificent performances during this time.

    Diesel
    Look - 8. It's what brought him to the dance really.
    Promo - 3. While King Mabel & Sid finished the job, having Diesel sing on the Christmas edition of Superstars was the death knell for Nash. We know what he was capable of, but Nash never got a chance to show it in the WWF.
    In-Ring - 5. Good big man wrestler, put him in the ring with the right opponent and he'll give you a great match.

    Razor Ramon
    Look - 8. He's in the Billy Gunn class of being deceptively big. In the land of the giants, Hall didn't seem that big but there's no mistaking that he's a unit and he managed to pull the whole Scarface look off without it feeling like dress-up.
    Promo - 6. Scott could always work the microphone, but I don't remember him really hitting his stride here. It just seemed like he was boxed in here, trying to sell middle of the card angles in full on Razor-shtick.
    In-Ring - 7. Did Razor have many bad matches in the WWF? Everything he did looked good, could work with anybody on the card and wasn't afraid to think outside of the box.
    Yokozuna

    Yokozuna
    Look - 7. One of the most intimidating looking big guys in WWF history.
    Promo - 1. Harsh, but did Yoko ever cut a promo in the WWF? Or was it all Fuji & Cornette? Outside of maybe the odd sentence here or there, I can't recall anything. Not that it was a bad thing, guys like him shouldn't talk but the Bret Hart scoring system takes no prisoners.
    In-Ring - 4. Solid agile big guy. At a certain point, he got too big and became too difficult to work but on song he carried the fine tradition of Samoan wrestlers being good hands.

  19. #44
    Senior Member bizil's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Bret Hart

    Look: 8 (I think his wardrobe enhanced his look kind of like Flair and Savage. Not quite as much, but it certainly enhanced Bret)
    Promo: 7
    In-Ring: 10

    Shawn Michaels

    Look: 8 (had the pretty boy rocker type of vibe. HBK, Bret, Savage, and Flair all had certain elements here that made up for a lack of huge size. Or a freakishly muscular physique.)
    Promo: 8
    In-Ring: 10

    Diesel

    Look: 10
    Promo: 6
    In-Ring: 5

    Razor Ramon

    Look: 10
    Promo: 7
    In-Ring: 7

    Yokozuna-

    Look: 6
    Promo: 1
    In-Ring: 6
    Last edited by bizil; 05-19-2017 at 06:10 AM.

  20. #45
    ≡≡≡≡|≡≡≡≡

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Ah, these go so quick that I fall behind so fast! I'll just post my ratings to catch up, and maybe/hopefully come back with some comments later:

    Austin
    Look: 8.5
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 9.5

    Rock
    Look: 7.5
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 8

    Undertaker
    Look: 8
    Promo: 8
    In-Ring: 8

    Foley
    Look: 8
    Promo: 9.5
    In-Ring: 8.5

    HHH
    Look: 9.5
    Promo: 8
    In-Ring: 9

    Bret
    Look: 10
    Promo: 7.5
    In-Ring: 10

    Shawn
    Look: 8.5
    Promo: 9
    In-Ring: 9.5

    Diesel
    Look: 8.5
    Promo: 7.5
    In-Ring: 6.5

    Razor
    Look: 9
    Promo: 7.5
    In-Ring: 7.5

    Yoko
    Look: 9.5
    Promo: 1
    In-Ring: 5.5

  21. #46
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Bonus Attitude Era

    Austin
    Look: 9
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 8

    Rock
    Look: 10
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 7

    The Undertaker
    Look: 9
    Promo: 4
    In-Ring: 6

    Triple H
    Look: 9
    Promo: 6
    In-Ring: 9

    Mankind
    Look: 6
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 9

    Indulgent Bonus

    Vince McMahon
    Look: 7
    Promo: 10
    In-Ring: 5

    Kane
    Look: 9
    Promo: 1 (Holy shit, some of the worst promos of all-time)
    In-Ring: 6

    Chyna
    Look: 10
    Promo: 4
    In-Ring: 5

    X-Pac
    Look: 7. (Thank you Zack de la Rocha)
    Promo: 6
    In-Ring: 8

  22. #47
    Senior Member Sea Slug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    I'm late to the party so I'll just get to where everybody else is.

    Bret Hart
    Look: 7
    Promo: 7
    In-Ring: 10

    Shawn Michaels
    Look: 7
    Promo: 9
    In-Ring: 10

    Diesel
    Look: 9 (He generally looked like an out of work basketball player, but I can't think of many of such description who couldn't kick my ass)
    Promo: 6
    In-Ring: 6

    Razor Ramon
    Look: 10
    Promo: 8
    In-Ring: 6

    Yokozuna
    Look: 7
    Promo: 1
    In-Ring: 5

    Can anybody give an example of a 1 in the Look department? Other than James Ellsworth?
    If all of mankind minus one were of of one opinion, and only one person of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
    -John Stuart Mill

  23. #48
    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Bret
    Look: 9
    Promos: 10
    In-Ring: 10


    HBK
    Look-9
    Promo-7
    In-Ring-10


    Diesel
    Look-9
    Promo-8
    In-Ring-8

    Razor
    Look-10
    Promo-10
    In-Ring- 8

    Yokozuna
    Look-7
    Promo-1
    In-Ring-6

    I rated Yoko pretty low but really I've done a 180 on the guy lately. Absolutely hated him and found him dreadful to watch back in the day, the more I've seen of him lately I appreciate him for what he could do, he was actually a really good big man and a great character.

  24. #49
    Moderator Emperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Bret Hart
    Look: 7. In good shape, looks like an athlete, and has some features that make him stand out (hair, attire, shades), but not really imposing or larger than life.
    Promo: 5. People say his heel promos in 1997 are really good, and I've been meaning to check them out for a while, but never got round to it. All I know of his promos are some random pre-match/post-match interviews scattered around his career. I really like his approach, straightforward talking, talking like a real athlete would, treating pro-wrestling as if its an actual sport. Although this approach appeals to my tastes, nothing suggests to me that his speaking ability is anything above average. 5 seems about right,
    In ring: 10. One of my absolute favourites to watch in the ring. He's great at everything he does. Master of the little things.

    Shawn Michaels
    Look: 8. This is based on his mid-late 90s look. Not the tallest guy, but made up for it in muscle mass. Tights suit him well, he has a handsome face and a nice head of hair.
    Promo: 6. He's a good speaker, has a powerful voice, and when he's on, he's great. But he's rarely on. Has far more average promos than good/great ones.
    In ring: 8. Extremely talented. Great at pretty much everything he does. But watching him over the years, he's somewhat of a one trick pony. His matches get samey very quickly. While he has a large list of classics, I feel like I couldn't watch many in a row without getting sick to death of him. I don't feel this way about other guys like Bret, Austin, and Flair.

    Don't know enough about the other three to comment.

    @ShinobiMusashi, you gave Bret a 10 for promo. Care to elaborate on that? Any recommendations?

  25. #50
    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bret Hart's 30 Point Grading System

    Just always love everything about Bret, he always clicked with me, he just had a personality and a realness/authenticity in his voice an his tone that always drew me into him and what he was fighting for. His babyface promos as fighting Intercontinental Champ and later as world champ, his promos early on in the Owen feud where he was talking about how he'd never fight his little brother under absolutely any circumstances whatsoever, I just don't get this theory that Bret was bad on the mic, I seen it differently. Also his promos as a heel, the promo where he reunites with Owen on Raw in 97 heartfelt emotional promo, his promos that whole Summer criticizing USA were deep shit that is probably more relevant now than it was when he cut the promos 20 years ago. Also his promo he cut when he come back to WCW for the first time since Owen died, great shit. Bret had his own thing when he cut promos, he was very good, he was very cool in his own little way. No pro wrestlers ever cut promos that got me emotionally invested in a pro wrestling match/angle like Bret could. Nobody.



    Last edited by ShinobiMusashi; 05-19-2017 at 01:32 PM.

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