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Thread: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

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    Moderately Moderating Michinokudriver's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by nath45 View Post
    As I've said before, wrestling always seems to held to much higher standard of accountability than other more ' legitimate ' forms of entertainment. And as I've stated, whether there is a still a belief wrestling is still aimed at children, then it's justified - but it's not.

    And you know what, wrestling is one hell of an easy target.

    The point is, the stuff that made the ' attitude ' era famous, outside of the talent, was the absurdity. It was shock and awe, as you mentioned in regards to Lady Gaga - the WWF knew what they were doing when Goldust wrestled in blackface, or another example, X-Pac mocked Mark Henry, in blackface. Or when characters were puking at ringside or when.. the list goes on.

    So you can't ' bring back the Attitude era ' in any form. What made it work, was the fact they were blessed with potentially the greatest line-up of main event talent in history. The only take away would be giving all the talent on television rhyme and reason to be there - storylines, decent storylines. But that's not necessarily " Attitude era " is it. The offensive, crude, and non-PC stuff wouldn't fly in 2017.

    And politically, I'm surprised the WWE hasn't been targeted - having donated $6 million supporting Donald Trumpís campaign. If there was ever a reason to avoid " bringing back the Attitude era " that would be it. Fear of bad PR.
    And again, I don't think it's inherent to wrestling, or a systematic persecution, I believe it comes from WWE's history. Other shows get a "let's wait and see" benefit of the doubt, WWE (based on previous angles) gets a "oh god they're going to f--- this up" because past performance is indicative of future results. They earned this reputation and it's going to take them a while to un-earn this reputation.

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by nath45 View Post
    John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, The Undertaker, The Rock, Austin, Mankind, Kane, Edge, Reigns.. and the list goes on.

    And let's not pretend the indies are more than they are.. Ambrose, Rollins, Balor, Owens, Bryan there's another 5.

    Moving on.

    The Attitude era was only 4 years at it's peak - I wonder if in 2 years time, we could look back on the growth of NXT from it's explosion at Takeover:Brooklyn to the continued growth and hype and overall quality of the product and compare it to the Attitude era in terms of influence on the WWE.

    Potentially in years to come we could be discussing the importance of NXT circa 2015-2019 and looking back on it in the same way we do the Attitude era, despite the overall industry not being as wildly popular in the United States as it was in the late 1990s.

    We might start looking at the Attitude era differently, without the rose colour glasses if we had something new to compare it to, in terms of growth, influence, popularity and overall lasting effect on the WWE - the only difference is the weekly televised product.

    These are the attendance records for all the NXT Takeovers outside of Full Sail. Excluding Chicago.

    Brooklyn - 15,589
    London - 10,079
    Dallas - 9,000
    Brooklyn II - 15,671
    Toronto - 12,649
    San Antonio - 9,465
    Orlando - 14,975

    - 87,428

    WWE themselves have stated that Survivor Series 1997, as the beginning of the Attitude Era. So we'll start in at the DX PPV a month later.

    D-Generation X - 6,358
    RR - 18,542
    No Way Out of Texas - 16,110
    WrestleMania XIV - 19,028
    Unforgiven - 21,427
    Over the Edge - 9,822
    KOTR - 17,087

    -- 108,374. An additional 20,946 patrons went to WWF PPV's in late 1997 and early 1998. The Attitude Era also had a massively successful weekly product to sell PPVs.

    In the same timeframe Dec 1997 - June 1998, WCW's attendance records.

    Starrcade - 17,500
    Souled Out - 5,486
    Superbrawl - 12,620
    Uncensored - 7,475
    Spring Stampede - 7,428
    Slamboree - 11,592
    GAB - 12,810

    -- 74,911. Interesting if given the chance in bigger venues, more people went to NXT Takeovers than WCW PPVs at the company's peak. Oh, and WCW also had a massively successful weekly product.
    Vince hated Taker, saw him as a red headed basketball player, and had to be talked into it. As for which individual came up with these characters...you should know very well they weren't all Vince

    But i get it, regardless who gets credit, those characters came to life within his company more often than now. And i don't know why exactly. Some have said there isn't as many regional companies to hone their craft before thrust onto tv and Vince's unforgiving grasp. I personally think over-saturation combined with huge abundance of alternate entertainment is a reason. People get sick of characters within a couple years

    Appreciate the effort to look up #s. However, i do think it has to do with venue size. 1998 Superbrawl for instance was Hogan vs Sting. They could've sold 50k tickets easy. After that, you have paltry attendance due to that was the shittest of shit ppv matches that is often cited as decline of WCW.

    I'm less familiar with WWF in that period so won't comment there. But i think ppl going to NXT matches are looking for different things from say the attitude era. It's more like a minor league - a chance to see the next talent. It isn't competition for Vince either. Fans of the company will go to WWE event in their town whether it's NXT or Raw or whatever. So NXT in essence has a built in base handed to it

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michinokudriver View Post
    Then I don't even know what you're talking about anymore, because it started off by your saying society in 2017 is too politically correct to even THINK about its entertainment handling something like sexual assault or race-based topics, to which I pointed out modern shows that DO handle these sorts of topics and they don't get hate, and now you've changed the goalposts to saying wrestling is supposed to be, and inherently is non-PC and satire?

    Setting aside whether I believe it to be effective satire (good satire is thought provoking and forces you to reevaluate your existing beliefs by looking at them through a new lens) if it IS supposed to be offensive then you can't really roll your eyes when someone's offended. It kinda reminds me of when Lady Gaga wore dildo heels on TV and then her fans were shocked and agape when someone else was shocked and agape; she knew exactly what she was doing and what kind of reaction she expected.
    I don't think they have the skill to tread this line any more, is what it boils down to. Trying to one up yourself all the time leads to HHH simulating necrophilia. But in the attitude era they were able to mostly pull off compelling PG-13 that they would get away with today as well.

    But let's go back to the LAST PG era to see what else is amiss

    It takes more than petulant stereotypes to get a rise out of people any more. You have to give them something they haven't seen. Back in the 80s (or was it 70s) they just had to plant "the sheik" praying in the ring the draw the crowd's wraith...

    Actually, THAT one would probably do the trick today as well

    But most of it, like a flamboyant gay villain, or a black servant who never gets to speak, would just piss people off not in a good way. Being non-pc and just being a dick are two entirely different things. Back in 1980s that was wrongly considered non pc

    Easiest thing left to the company today is just repetitive PG crap with some clownish "New Day" thrown in. Low risk low reward, but they keep their sponsors and lowball wrestler contracts as they have to constantly be replaced, due to crowd apathy

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    Senior Member nath45's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Question - if you had never seen the Attitude Era, would you hold the same cynicism towards the modern day WWE?

    This is a general question to all.

    I would also bet, a lot of people never actually experienced the Attitude Era first hand and actually enjoy the idea of the Attitude era the same way kids today wear Nirvana and Run DMC T-Shirts. If anything they might have seen the classic matches from the volumes upon volumes of WWE DVDs, but never actually watched the week to week product back to back. People are told over and over again, how great it was - thus, they believe it without forming a real opinion on it.

    I grew up during the 1990s, and hold the music of this decade very high up on a very high pedestal. The music of the day, was the soundtrack of my life growing up. Now there are some timeless classics in there that will never go away. Today's music I have a real passionate cynicism towards, and you know what - I barely give it a chance, because I believe it will never compare to what I grew up listening to. There's two lessons here. Every time a musician dies or I start tumbling down the youtube rabbithole into 90s nostalgia, I realize - some of it, the stuff I liked - is actually pretty fucking awful. And, every now and then I catch something on the radio, look it up and realize it's relatively modern and realise I've missed / missing something pretty damn good because I refused to source new music.

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    Senior Member vendrell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by nath45 View Post
    Question - if you had never seen the Attitude Era, would you hold the same cynicism towards the modern day WWE?

    This is a general question to all.

    I would also bet, a lot of people never actually experienced the Attitude Era first hand and actually enjoy the idea of the Attitude era the same way kids today wear Nirvana and Run DMC T-Shirts. If anything they might have seen the classic matches from the volumes upon volumes of WWE DVDs, but never actually watched the week to week product back to back. People are told over and over again, how great it was - thus, they believe it without forming a real opinion on it.

    I grew up during the 1990s, and hold the music of this decade very high up on a very high pedestal. The music of the day, was the soundtrack of my life growing up. Now there are some timeless classics in there that will never go away. Today's music I have a real passionate cynicism towards, and you know what - I barely give it a chance, because I believe it will never compare to what I grew up listening to. There's two lessons here. Every time a musician dies or I start tumbling down the youtube rabbithole into 90s nostalgia, I realize - some of it, the stuff I liked - is actually pretty fucking awful. And, every now and then I catch something on the radio, look it up and realize it's relatively modern and realise I've missed / missing something pretty damn good because I refused to source new music.
    Kind of hard to say as I grew up watching the monday night wars and the attitude era so hard to say how I would judge todays product if I hadn't seen the attitude era. With that said if I had never seen the attitude era, I probably wouldn't be a wrestling fan right now. Now sure the attitude era wasn't the end all be all of pro wrestling and it had it's flaws too but I can go back and look at those old raws and still find them enjoyable. Obviously to some degree the excitement isn't as high because I already know what happens and where all the storylines are going but it's still solid. Oddly enough I can't say the same about Nitro. Nitro overall was a horrible show. Anyways I think I can view todays product as what it is without comparison to the attitude era, I do it with other wrestling promotions and can find enjoyment in them but the simple fact is that right now the Raw's and Smackdowns are a pretty dreadful viewing experience. There seems to be no energy or fire to the weekly shows, however with that said I still enjoy their ppv events for the most part or whatever wwe calls them now as I guess they don't actually do ppv anymore.

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    Senior Member nath45's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Stephanie McMahon Talks Equality and No Sexualization In WWE
    By Marc Middleton
    May 25, 2017 - 12:28:06 AM

    Stephanie McMahon spoke with Sky Sports' "SportsWomen" show while WWE was in the UK earlier this month and said the company is doing all it can to lead the fight for equality in sports, adding that there's no place for sexualization in WWE. You can watch video of the interview at this link.

    Regarding content on WWE programming and the outfits female Superstars wear, Stephanie insisted viewers should not be concerned. She said:

    "People shouldn't be worried. Our athletes aren't worried, especially when you look at Olympic level athletes having to wear certain types of clothing.

    Our men and women have to wear spandex-type clothing because what they do in the ring is actually quite dangerous. If you had a lot of loose clothing then it could be a problem in the ring. This is athletics, this is sports, this is like live action theatre and there's no denying the athleticism of our women in the ring and what they can do."

    Despite recent progress made with the Divas Revolution and the development of women in sports, Stephanie says she's far from done with the fight for equality. She said:

    "I'm incredibly proud of WWE. I'm not sure if we're the standard bearer or not but I still think we've got a long way to go and I would hope every company becomes the standard bearer."
    Read more at http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/...gH7xc87cxaJ.99
    That's a big part of the Attitude era never coming back.

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    Man with a Plan Ness's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Stephanie is a true feminist icon. Praise her.

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    Moderately Moderating Michinokudriver's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by nath45 View Post
    Question - if you had never seen the Attitude Era, would you hold the same cynicism towards the modern day WWE?

    This is a general question to all.

    I would also bet, a lot of people never actually experienced the Attitude Era first hand and actually enjoy the idea of the Attitude era the same way kids today wear Nirvana and Run DMC T-Shirts. If anything they might have seen the classic matches from the volumes upon volumes of WWE DVDs, but never actually watched the week to week product back to back. People are told over and over again, how great it was - thus, they believe it without forming a real opinion on it.

    I grew up during the 1990s, and hold the music of this decade very high up on a very high pedestal. The music of the day, was the soundtrack of my life growing up. Now there are some timeless classics in there that will never go away. Today's music I have a real passionate cynicism towards, and you know what - I barely give it a chance, because I believe it will never compare to what I grew up listening to. There's two lessons here. Every time a musician dies or I start tumbling down the youtube rabbithole into 90s nostalgia, I realize - some of it, the stuff I liked - is actually pretty fucking awful. And, every now and then I catch something on the radio, look it up and realize it's relatively modern and realise I've missed / missing something pretty damn good because I refused to source new music.
    That is an interesting question -- if I were a brand new fan then I would assume this is the way it's always been, of course, but would I have continued to watch...?

    Most of the criticisms I have aren't "it's not as kewl as it was during the AE" but rather the idea of finishers being virtually the only way to end matches killing drama, the clear hierarchy of wrestlers (though Jinder beating the champ has potential), the done to death evil-boss angle -- but these are also me being a weary and slightly jaded fan who's watched since the New Generation, even if you plucked the AE out of my memories I think these criticisms would remain.

    (And I'm the sort of guy who's always looking for new music. Right now the Allah-Las are definitely my jam.)

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    Member DaikaijuGojira's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    I have been watching since the early 70's and honestly, I just do not see Vince going back to the AE, it would hurt him financially. The IWC type fanbase is not as big as they think they are IMHO, and the company is slowly (for some) going truly global (hence Jinder) and I recall Cena talking about wanting to do something big in China (keep your mind out of the gutter) I think it is doing fine, lot of the indy guys are now in the main event scene, I for one enjoy most of what they are showing. My only disinterest is the 205 division.
    "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!": Ancient Klingon Proverb.

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ness View Post
    Stephanie is a true feminist icon. Praise her.
    Stephanie does whatever she thinks makes $. It's more like with porn everywhere now, it'd be pointless to do something like the "nitro girls" or a character devoted to following her guy around (elizabeth) or acting slutty (sable)

    But the divas still fall into the "couldn't hurt a fly" category that Rhyno was talking about. They're still basically athletic eye candy. There's no Jinder Mahal female version, such as a weightlifter. Actually i would argue that Chyna was more of a feminist icon back in the AE than the current divas

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaikaijuGojira View Post
    I have been watching since the early 70's and honestly, I just do not see Vince going back to the AE, it would hurt him financially. The IWC type fanbase is not as big as they think they are IMHO, and the company is slowly (for some) going truly global (hence Jinder) and I recall Cena talking about wanting to do something big in China (keep your mind out of the gutter) I think it is doing fine, lot of the indy guys are now in the main event scene, I for one enjoy most of what they are showing. My only disinterest is the 205 division.
    If they do come to rely on China, the AE will truly be dead since the government censors there would never allow it

    Also you probably wouldn't ever see certain matches again, such as "first blood" Although that seems to be dead anyway

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michinokudriver View Post
    That is an interesting question -- if I were a brand new fan then I would assume this is the way it's always been, of course, but would I have continued to watch...?

    Most of the criticisms I have aren't "it's not as kewl as it was during the AE" but rather the idea of finishers being virtually the only way to end matches killing drama, the clear hierarchy of wrestlers (though Jinder beating the champ has potential), the done to death evil-boss angle -- but these are also me being a weary and slightly jaded fan who's watched since the New Generation, even if you plucked the AE out of my memories I think these criticisms would remain.

    (And I'm the sort of guy who's always looking for new music. Right now the Allah-Las are definitely my jam.)
    They would remain. I first noticed the 'finishers only' rule at WM 18 or something - all but one match ended this way. It's hardly new. I remember being stunned when Orton won the title with the kick to the head. This is all from over saturation. Back when i started watching as a kid, there were 3-4 PPVs a year and no weekly show worth a crap, and so i didn't notice patterns as much

    One thing the AE definitely had over this era was variety of matches. That could go a long ways against the repetitiveness, but for some reason they don't do it. Well aside from relegating a single match (usually) that they name one PPV after, like Elimination Chamber. I felt like not only was WM this year very drawn out and predictable, but the 3 team ladder match with Hardys was the only thrilling moment

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    Senior Member nath45's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    Quote Originally Posted by steellord123 View Post
    One thing the AE definitely had over this era was variety of matches. That could go a long ways against the repetitiveness, but for some reason they don't do it. Well aside from relegating a single match (usually) that they name one PPV after, like Elimination Chamber. I felt like not only was WM this year very drawn out and predictable, but the 3 team ladder match with Hardys was the only thrilling moment
    It's not necessarily more variety of matches - it's more of a case, during the Attitude era, we were seeing them for the first time and being blown away. A lot of these matches became a lot more realized during the second wave of the Attitude era ie: the ladder match became TLC, etc. Then during the mid 2000s, it evolved into MITB.

    I remember seeing the first handful of TNA's Ultimate X matches, eventually they were perfected and were incredible matches - but how many ways can you fall from a rope hanging above the ring and continue to innovate?

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    Senior Member nath45's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would WWE ever go back to the attitude era?

    I rewatched the 2001 WWF v WCW/ECW Invasion PPV last night, why? I don't know.

    Funnily with a buyrate of 770,000, the event is the highest grossing non-WrestleMania pay-per-view in WWE history. Wow.

    Anyways, something that stood out and something I've been thinking about since Cornette's comments on Table for 3 along the lines of ' the concept has changed from something that people can buy as a fight and now the guys think they are going to do the moves, which will get them over. '

    The Main Event between WWF and The Alliance, the "Inaugural Brawl" was nuts, it was all over the place. It was a real kick, punch kind of affair. When people hit the turnbuckles, it made a noise they hit it that hard.

    The point though, considering all these top guys in the ring together, they botched a lot of stuff. They were going 100 miles an hour. There were mis-cues, mis-judgements, some real sloppy, messy work. But it added to the urgency, it added to this illusion of a real fight.

    Today, everything is so carefully composed and considering how much better the workers are today athletically, everything today feels slower.

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