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Thread: Undertaker: In the running for GOAT?

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    Anti-Anti-Smark Djm's Avatar

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    Default Undertaker: In the running for GOAT?

    Longevity, performing at a high level, versatility, getting other people over, babyface, heel, gimmick evolutions and changes.

    Is it so crazy and controversial to make a case to say Undertaker might be the GOAT? I've thought about this for the last couple of years. I think he has to be in the conversation.
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    Ravishing Slick Dude KashDinero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    No, it isn't crazy, because he is definitely the GOAT. In WWE, at least, which to some may be reason enough to call him the GOAT in general.

    I side with Kobashi when it comes to GOAT conversations, but even he is debatable when Misawa's name is mentioned in the same conversation.

    But, yeah, Taker, man. It's hard to argue against him.
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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    Taker isn't even the GOAT in WWE to me

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    Moderately Moderating Michinokudriver's Avatar

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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KashDinero View Post
    No, it isn't crazy, because he is definitely the GOAT. In WWE, at least, which to some may be reason enough to call him the GOAT in general.

    I side with Kobashi when it comes to GOAT conversations, but even he is debatable when Misawa's name is mentioned in the same conversation.

    But, yeah, Taker, man. It's hard to argue against him.
    I don't believe he is but I can absolutely understand the arguments for him. But to me, Taker was never the greatest in the ring (his undead gimmick held him back the early years; it wasn't til Ministry/ABA that he was able to sell as a human being and not wrestle like a slow zombie) and never the greatest on the mic (his best promos read like an angsty 13 year old's fan fic of goth), so I can't call him the indisputabe GOAT.

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    Ravishing Slick Dude KashDinero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Michinokudriver View Post
    I don't believe he is but I can absolutely understand the arguments for him. But to me, Taker was never the greatest in the ring (his undead gimmick held him back the early years; it wasn't til Ministry/ABA that he was able to sell as a human being and not wrestle like a slow zombie) and never the greatest on the mic (his best promos read like an angsty 13 year old's fan fic of goth), so I can't call him the indisputabe GOAT.
    For me it's not always about the in ring wrestling. Taker went from, like, 90-95/96 as a pure character driven entity and was the most over guy on the roster for the majority of that time. His late 96/97 evolution is a part of the charm for me. Yes, his mic work was never the best, but his catchphrase more than made up for that.

    Personally, he has never been my favourite, but I can't dispute what he meant to WWE and wrestling over the years.

    I could make a hundred points against him, some of which could be considered strong cases,so I can definitely understand those who don't don't hold him in the same regard that I do, but, for me, his positives eclipse the negatives.
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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Michinokudriver View Post
    I don't believe he is but I can absolutely understand the arguments for him. But to me, Taker was never the greatest in the ring (his undead gimmick held him back the early years; it wasn't til Ministry/ABA that he was able to sell as a human being and not wrestle like a slow zombie) and never the greatest on the mic (his best promos read like an angsty 13 year old's fan fic of goth), so I can't call him the indisputabe GOAT.
    His best promos were from his ABA run, and those didn't come off like an angsty 13 year old's goth fan fic at all.

    EDIT: To add to this topic though, I think 'Taker will end up being remembered like the Andre to Rock and Austin's Hogan. It's hard to readily tag a special feature attraction as the GOAT over business-transforming/business-transcending main event draws. That said, 'Taker holds a place over HHH, HBK, Savage, Warrior, Flair, Foley, and maybe even Bret (if I can put my markdom aside) in WWE GOAT rankings for me. The only guys I'd put ahead of his bedside the aforementioned Rock, Austin, and Hogan would be possibly Bruno, Cena, and Andre.

    EDITē: just out of curiosity (and not wanting to work) decided to see what my personal WWE GOAT ranking might look like...

    1. Hulk Hogan
    2. Steve Austin
    3. The Rock
    4. Andre the Giant
    5. The Undertaker
    6. Bruno Sammartino
    7. John Cena
    8. Triple H
    9. Bret Hart
    10. Shawn Michaels
    11. Randy Savage
    12. Mick Foley
    13. Ric Flair
    14. Kurt Angle
    15. Roddy Piper
    16. Brock Lesnar
    17. The Ultimate Warrior
    18. Eddie Guerrero
    19. Bob Backlund
    20. ...

    Work in progress, clearly
    Last edited by PI; 04-06-2017 at 08:50 AM.

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    Ravishing Slick Dude KashDinero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    I think this deserves a thread of its own lol.
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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KashDinero View Post
    I think this deserves a thread of its own lol.
    Agree, so I moved it.

    As far far as the question, he certainly could be argued as the greatest of all time, but I don't think so. For me his in-ring ability & mic work are not good enough for me to put him there.
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    Man with a Plan Ness's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Taker had some stretches where his ring work was just bad. Despite that he's definitely a contender. And if not GOAT than you can make an argument for GOAT Big Man.

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    Moderator UT's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Like Ness I think maybe in a bubble of big men , he is the top contender - but overall I don't even think he's really in the conversation as pure GOAT.

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    To me Taker has always been and will always be in the top 2, which could flip on any given day. I totally get people arguing the opposing because there is that small field of the absolute greatest and it is very subjective from person to person. People have their own personal favorites.
    I do agree that of you're talking Best Big Men, or Best Special attraction, or Best Character- Taker is #1 in all 3 easily. But when its a blanket GOAT, you ask 20 people you'll probably get 20 different lists. There is zero doubt that Taker is in that conversation. Anyone who says different is letting personal bias get in the way of reality.
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    Senior Member BARCELONA's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Not quite, but he's definitely in that bracket of genuine legends.

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    Senior Member nath45's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    In any business/industry, longevity and commitment can be often confused for something greater.

    Due to this longevity as a performer and commitment to the gimmick, The Undertaker deserves the respect he has earnt. It's legendary.

    I feel right now, these past few days, most of us have our rose coloured glasses on and we begin having these GOAT conversations. And for a long time, I've on and off viewed The Undertaker as the greatest WWE Superstar of all time.

    I remember back in 2005, reading these same sort of conversations when Eddie Guerrero died. December 2005, suddenly these ' is Eddie the greatest wrestler ever? ' conversations start popping up. And while Eddie was very good, and maybe even great for a period towards the end of his life. The answer was no. Probably not even in the top 20. Yet a combination of feelings of loss, the internet, and the WWE narrative would have convinced you, Eddie was in-deed one of the best ever.

    Was The Undertaker ever the man? The biggest draw? The top guy? Probably not. Was The Undertaker every the greatest worker? Probably not. What Undertaker had was an intangible quality. A mystic. A presence. Especially since his return to the deadman gimmick in 2004.

    For me, The Undertaker's retirement is a little like Logan. Here's this aged, beat-up, broken old man - a shell of his former self - the last of his kind, the last outlaw. The adamantium is slowly killing old man Logan, while every match The Undertaker has had in recent years has nearly killed him. It was never going to be a happy ending for The Undertaker. Losing to Reigns was fine. He went out exactly the way he should have - broken, beaten, but fighting. I can almost hear Johnny Cash's when the man comes around playing during any tribute packages.

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    Moderately Moderating Michinokudriver's Avatar

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    Default Re: Throwaway Comments That Truly Aren't Worth A New Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PI View Post
    His best promos were from his ABA run, and those didn't come off like an angsty 13 year old's goth fan fic at all.
    Okay, that's more than fair. I dunno why but I blanked on his ABA promos.

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    Senior Member Kane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    He was a good big man. But the guy was one of the most over protected performers of all time. Give him the booking that other big men have gotten then he's on the same level as show and Kane.

    Hes had some great matches but he's also had a lot of average matches. But he probably has the Greatest gimmick of all time.

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    COYG Todd's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Based on what quality? He wasn't really a top draw for WWE until they noticed the Streak by which point WrestleMania sold itself. A good-to-great worker, not the best. On the mic? Decent when given the chance.

    He's not Bret Hart in the ring, he's not The Rock on the stick, and he's not Hogan or Austin on the gate. So what is he? A great wrestler with incredible longevity and arguably the greatest single character in wrestling history. But not the greatest and not really close in my view.

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    Senior Member Jack Nichols's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    He is definitely worthy of being in the conversation and I could buy some of the arguments for him being the GOAT. He may not have been the draw that Austin or Hogan was but he was most certainly a draw in his own right. To me Taker was always a "main event" eve if he wasn't going after the title or going on last, way before WWE started "multiple main eventing" their big shows. His early character may have held him back in terms if ring work so no he isn't Bret Hart in the ring but he did get better and more exciting with time and produced some great matches and spots.

    When you add it all up there are three guys and I see the argument for all being the GOAT. Flair, Hogan, Undertaker.

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    Based on what quality? He wasn't really a top draw for WWE until they noticed the Streak by which point WrestleMania sold itself. A good-to-great worker, not the best. On the mic? Decent when given the chance.

    He's not Bret Hart in the ring, he's not The Rock on the stick, and he's not Hogan or Austin on the gate. So what is he? A great wrestler with incredible longevity and arguably the greatest single character in wrestling history. But not the greatest and not really close in my view.
    This saves me the time of typing a whole bunch, as it nails the points I was going to make. He isn't really close at all. And that isn't shitting on him since greatest of all time is a huge claim.

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    They still play defense? The Real LT's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Greatest big man? Sure. Greatest gimmick? Absolutely. But greatest wrestler of all-time I would have to say no. Not when you have guys like Austin, Flair, Nick Bockwinkel, Harley Race, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, and quite a few other legends out there.

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    Ravishing Slick Dude KashDinero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    As far as being a WWE SooperStah I will always consider him to be the GOAT. Longevity definitely plays a strong part in that, admittedly, but he has been a part of some amazing matches and angles along the way.
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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Andre the Giant was the GOAT, hands down. The only way anyone could beat him was when he let them. Hogan is nothing without Andre putting him over.

    Taker is in my top 5 along with Bruno, Austin, and Flair.

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    Atodaso Strobe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShwaggyD
    The only way anyone could beat him was when he let them.
    What is the relevance of this to a debate on pro wrestling greatness?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShwaggyD
    Hogan is nothing without Andre putting him over.
    Hogan had been the top draw for the WWF national expansion for three entire years before he took on Andre. Doing a 9.1 rating on MTV for the War to Settle the Score, teaming with Mr. T for the first Mania, his own cartoon series, breaking the 10k+ house drawing record in 1984, 1985 and 1986 (which would be his best ever year - the Orndorff feud being his best drawing house show feud, in a per show sense, ever). Before he ever got to the WWF, he was super over in the AWA and starring in Rocky III; while in Japan he was also hugely over and even beat Inoki in the 1983 final to win the yearly tournament in New Japan (the only year between 1978-1988 where Inoki - when in the tournament and able to compete in the final - didn't win).

    He was only one of the greatest wrestling stars ever before Andre ever turned.

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    Anti-Anti-Smark Djm's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    "In the conversation"

    Just for the sake of clarification after mod titling.
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    Moderately Moderating Michinokudriver's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djm View Post
    "In the conversation"

    Just for the sake of clarification after mod titling.
    Better?

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    Default Re: Is Undertaker the GOAT?

    Undertaker is a guy who is hard to place in annals of pro wrestling. He was around a long time, but he was a once-a-year special attraction for the last 5-6 years of his career. Of course, if he wasn't that great he would not be a once-a-year special attraction. Compared to guys like Orton, HHH, Cena etc., he didn't have nearly as many title runs. Again, he was over enough that he didn't need the title to be a focus of his work which allowed the company to have 2(eventually 3) main events at Wrestlemania. There were times when his in-ring work was bad. I remember thinking in the tail end of the Monday Night Wars that he was out of shape and slow. He trimmed down and he was a much better performer without the extra weight. Anyway, I am not sure where I would place him on a list. Maybe there should be a separate list for "special attraction wrestlers" where I would rank him at number 2 behind Andre.

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