Wrestlemania match between Chris Jericho and Kevin Owens should be advertised as the 61 minute man vs. the 21 second man.
I never really get why people often want matches to go 30+. The only non-Iron Man Mania singles matches that have broken 30 are: Taker/HBK I (Mr. WM challenging the Streak), Taker/HHH III ("End of an Era"; culminating a Mania arc started with HBK retiring Flair really), Rock/Cena I (intergenerational dream match hyped for a year) and the Taker/Shane abomination. Austin/Bret went 22. Bret/Owen went 20. Savage/Steamboat didn't even go 15.
Why would anyone want to see Jericho go 30 in 2017? Owens and Jericho would almost certainly put on a better 20-min match than 30. I'd continue that to say they'd have a better 15-min match than 20 and hell, maybe even a better 10-min match than 15. It isn't like it is some epic clash of legends or a match building off years of storylines. Since it is a grudge match between two former friends, it would be great and refreshing if they did a 10-12 minute brawl. No sequences to try to get "this is awesome" chants. No setting up of big gimmick spots. Two guys trying to smash each others faces in. Hate, lots of strikes, seldom much distance between them.
@Cobain. Do you actually think they'd have a better 30-min match than 15 or 20?
Full blunt force honesty confession time:
I've only ever watched the WMXII Ironman's finish in real time... The rest was endured via fast forward, and even that was an endurance test. Even Ironmans with more going on during the match (falls, interference, etc.) are a boring chore to get through. Saying Rock/HHH is the best Ironman isn't exactly saying it's a match that I would enjoy watching. And even with the benefit of commercial breaks and featuring my boy Brock Lesnar, the SD! Ironman was a chore to get through. Even Angle's ultimate submission match against Benoit during Benoit's epic Spring 2001 was somewhat unappealing, and that was even cut in half timewise. I'm on board with all the folks who've pointed out the conceptual flaws inherent in booking Ironman matches and gimmicks of a similar ilk.
And then the are the matches where the duration isn't an inherent element of the stipulation. At least they have the benefit in real time of me not knowing how long they'll go... But if I'm not watching it live and the cat gets out of the bag about how long the match ran, it becomes a huge barrier to me ever sitting down to finally watch start to finish (or at all).
As much as I love Flair, I don't think I could ever sit through one of his Broadways... Much less more than one. Cena/HBK 2 on RAW in London was an awful boring chore to get through.
I've never seen some of the matches that Strobe just rattled off from recent WrestleMania history, and I honestly doubt I ever will knowing how long they ran. That's SOOO unappealing to me. And I don't get people's hard-ons for such long matches. Matches shouldn't need that much time to tell a good story. Matches that long, more often than not, feel like superficially forced epics. Fuck that. I want something organic and concise.
And then there's the whole deal where the notion that main event matches require 30+ minutes causes match cards to end up being of shittier quality overall. Either matches get cut or guys get crammed into nonsensical overbooked clusterfucks... With the end result being feuds that deserve a spotlight blow-off don't get it on big cards.
Yeah, it don't need 30 minutes. 15 to 20 minutes is all it needs. Give it a good amount of time the match deserves and have the Taker match, Lesnar match be less than 10 minutes. Only like two matches I care to watch. Other than that this years Wrestlemania looks like a Raw PPV. The build feels like a build to a Raw PPV too. Its like WWE said screw this year. Lets wait until next year.
My theory on match length would go into this comparison.
Master of Puppets is a great song, and it's long (a little over 8 minutes). That said, Metallica also wrote a lot of crappy long songs (the majority of the St. Anger album). There are a lot of good punk rock songs that are less than a minute. Point is, it doesn't matter how long something is time wise, just how you fill the time.
Last edited by Leper Messiah; 03-07-2017 at 09:20 PM.
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The correlation between long and great matches is one of the biggest misconceptions in Pro Wrestling.
Let's look at one of the biggest counter-arguments, the 'six-star' match between Omega & Okada. The match undoubtedly had one of the best finishing stretches in recent memory but the first twenty minutes was filler and the escalation of violence wasn't smooth at all. Instead of the match building piece by piece and telling a story, it was almost like both competitors realised they were losing the crowd so they had to start pulling out all these stunts to bring them back into it.
Also it's fine to work a shorter match. I know there's this fascination with the past, but times have changed and Pro Wrestlers could get away with working a slower methodical pace because fans still had this perception of Pro Wrestling where they couldn't tell what was real and what was a work. These days, everybody knows it's a work and enjoy being part of the wink wink nudge nudge aspect of it. To compliment that shift, wrestlers should scale back their matches, particularly on television so they can get certain spots over.
Perfect thread start... Would you rather a 61 minute match or a 21 second match?
So if Owens and Jericho aren't given ample time in the ring, what are Vince Mcmahon's alternatives? And I'm talking about what will probably turn out to be Vince Mcmahons plan. No fantasy booking here.
Last edited by mx518; 03-08-2017 at 01:57 AM.
15-20 minutes bell to bell is still a long time given you've got to run pre-match promos, big entrances and any post-match shenanigans.
A 20 minute match can easily be a 30 minute segment.
Considering how many segments they tend to plan for the show, they shouldn't have any issue filling time.
If we're talking Jericho v Owens - it should be a slugfest.
A 60 minute match makes no sense. Owens turned on Jericho, Jericho distracted Owens - losing the belt - they hate each other. 30 minutes of pandering to the crowd and ' working each other out ' makes no sense at all before the match actually starts. It's a grudge match, it's vendetta, it's revenge.
Owens will come out of the gate red-hot, pissed off, in attack mode, beating Jericho down. The vet in Jericho will endure the beating and out-think Owens, out-working KO with some shifty counter offense, then giving Owens a beating, it will eventually even out, back and forth until Kevin Owens get his Wrestlemania moment Pop-Up Powerbombing Jericho on the apron.
25 minutes max.
But yes, the idea that long = good is quite the fallacy. Some matches warrant it, but just because it doesn't go 30-plus doesn't mean it's not getting enough time.
Owens/Jericho in particular should not be a 30-minute match. It's a bitter personal grudge match. These guys shouldn't be trading rest holds for 20 minutes.
Lets all be serious here.... There is NO WAY IN HELL that Jericho/Owens gets more than 12 minutes at WrestleMania.
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@Matt actually I hadn't heard that before, thinking about it, it certainly sounds plausible given the shift in main event style in New Japan.
And you raise a good point about circumstance. One of the biggest problems in independent and international wrestling is the lack of time cues. As a result you get these shows that just drag on for four hours since guys have to get everything in. I often wonder what NJPW would look like if they limited their main shows to two hours and only went longer on their bigger shows. I actually think it would help business in the long term because speaking from experience it's so easy to get burnt out unless you're skipping ahead.
It all depends on what the story calls for, for example the talked about Okada/Omega match called for something longer because the story was Kenny Omega's ascension to the main event Okada desperately trying to hold his place. The longer match works as it builds tension all the way through to the climax.
With Owens/Jericho, you only need about 20 minutes, both men want to actually kill each other. They won't be pacing themselves (nor should they) so a 45 minute match would make zero sense. Give them the the 20 minutes to hold nothing back and they can tell a great story.
I'm kind of surprised you guys don't want to see Owens and Jericho beat the crap out of each other for 30 minutes. To each his own.
Because longer matches don't always equal quality. Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho once had an unsanctioned match that went 30 minutes and it sucked. The circumstances didn't warrant that type of match length. You shouldn't be resting in a personal hate filled fight.
Match length to me comes down to the story and characters surrounding it. CM Punk vs John Cena at MITB 2011 is one of my favorite matches ever and it went over 30 minutes. But the story of the match was that this is Punks last night in WWE and he is trying to win the biggest prize to prove that he is every as good as Cena is. He kicks out of every thing Cena has to offer and eventually beats him. The story weaved through the match though enabled it be 30 minutes of quality. Plus the story of Punk leaving drew everybody in ready to see what would happen and had a satisfying conclusion on top of that. It was pro wrestling at its best.
The KO/Jericho story could be told much much better given a 12-15 minute no frills match as opposed to a 30 minute match. It doesn't fit the personal animosity the two have. Just like Lesnar/Goldberg shouldn't go 20 minutes and instead is much better presented as a 8-10 minute bombfest.
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Most people probably have PTSD from sitting through the 26-minute Jericho/Ambrose Asylum match last year when it would've likely been fine with 10-15 minutes less and don't want to go through it again.
Let's also not pretend it's circa 2001 Y2J Chris Jericho in the match either - it's 2017, 46 year old Chris Jericho, who does DDP Yoga to help with his back pain. Let's not build this match up based on past performances.
As for match length, there's no set pattern. Unless you just don't have the attention span for it at all, an 8 minute match can be as satisfying as a 40-minute match, but wrestling being on television for so long has made it so the matches don't mean anything, and they can be ran through quickly.
So, a match that takes its time to tell the story can lose some people that don't have the patience.
46 year old wrestler taking on an independent darling/brawler in a long-ish match.
Take away the silly gimmick name and the similarities are startling.
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