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Thread: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    But for some reason it isn't.

    After TNA left Spike ROH continued to keep on rolling at what they do best. Securing TV deals on regional stations and getting that sweet, sweet syndication money.

    The argument has been made, and I'd think rightly, that ROH is the real second biggest company in the US. I would be shocked if they weren't profitable, while TNA isn't.

    And yet ... and Yet ROH feels far away from the popularity of TNA. Even with the TV deal, the NJPW partnership, the PPVs, the production.

    For some reason ROH seems extremely less popular than TNA. To the point that people don't even know they have a TV show.

    I must have had the same conversation with a dozen wrestling fans from 2011 to now. It goes something like that.

    Me: Do you ever watch Ring of HOnor?

    Them: No. They have a TV show?

    Me: Yeah, you didn't know that? Had if for a while.

    There's an alternative to this that is just as common, but more surprising. It goes like this ...

    Me: Do you ever watch Ring of Honor?

    Them: No, they don't have the TV show where I live.

    Me: You can watch it on their website. Completely free.

    Them: REally?

    ...

    For all the talk about how awful and what a train wreck TNA is, it is an extremely popular train wreck. (For pro wrestling standards.)

    It seems like ROH has never capitalized on the opportunity to truely become the second biggest company in the UNited STates. And that surprises me when you consider what a truely great case they have, what a truely great claim they have ... on that title.

    ***

    Edit: sorry, the title was supposed to be, "should be as popular as TNA ...".

    Botched it.

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    Moderator Emperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Fixed the thread title for you

    I haven't followed either promotion for a decade or more. I will say this, though. When I was following TNA in the mid-late 2000s, it aired on UK cable TV. On the Bravo channel if I recall. I have no idea how long that lasted for, but I seriously doubt ROH ever appeared on our cable TV. Could be wrong though.

    Perhaps ROH's problem is a lack of marketing and promotion. TNA attracted a lot of the biggest names in the industry. Sting. Kurt Angle. Jeff Hardy. Kevin Nash. Eric Bischoff. Ric Flair. Hulk Hogan. That's why they became popular. What is the biggest star ROH had as a regular roster member? I have no idea. Matt Hardy? In TNA's early days, they were a bit bush league even though they had some pretty big names. But after a few years in the game, they became something more. They improved their production, came across as a legitimate competitor to WWE, got some attention, and hired those big names. I've not seen any ROH after their TV deal. What do their shows look like? Do they still have an "indy promotion" vibe? There must be a reason they can't attract the stars like TNA once did. Unfortunately cooperating with NJPW isn't doing them any favours in that respect either. As good as it is, Japanese wrestling is very niche outside of Japan.

    For a long time ROH has been the premier US independent promotion, attracting the cream of the crop, but nothing more than that. They are fodder for the WWEs and the TNAs and the NJPWs. TNA started out that way, but they quickly rose above. I put it down to marketing.

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    Anti-Anti-Smark Djm's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    No.

    ROH has never been about trying to be the big #2 promotion, even after being bought by Sinclair. They have always been about their own identity, their own style.

    And that is something that won't ever cross over to large numbers, especially in the 90-plus percent fanbase of people that say they are wrestling fans, but are only WWE fans.

    TNA has always done something in the vein of sports-entertainment to varying degrees, for good or for ill. They've always gone after big big names, they've always tried to do things BIG. This has never been ROH's M.O and probably never will.

    And for that reason, they will never be as popular. Not until they get a weekly television show on a cable network, and have a MAJOR name sign with them full time.
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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor View Post
    Fixed the thread title for you

    I haven't followed either promotion for a decade or more. I will say this, though. When I was following TNA in the mid-late 2000s, it aired on UK cable TV. On the Bravo channel if I recall. I have no idea how long that lasted for, but I seriously doubt ROH ever appeared on our cable TV. Could be wrong though.

    Perhaps ROH's problem is a lack of marketing and promotion. TNA attracted a lot of the biggest names in the industry. Sting. Kurt Angle. Jeff Hardy. Kevin Nash. Eric Bischoff. Ric Flair. Hulk Hogan. That's why they became popular. What is the biggest star ROH had as a regular roster member? I have no idea. Matt Hardy? In TNA's early days, they were a bit bush league even though they had some pretty big names. But after a few years in the game, they became something more. They improved their production, came across as a legitimate competitor to WWE, got some attention, and hired those big names. I've not seen any ROH after their TV deal. What do their shows look like? Do they still have an "indy promotion" vibe? There must be a reason they can't attract the stars like TNA once did. Unfortunately cooperating with NJPW isn't doing them any favours in that respect either. As good as it is, Japanese wrestling is very niche outside of Japan.

    For a long time ROH has been the premier US independent promotion, attracting the cream of the crop, but nothing more than that. They are fodder for the WWEs and the TNAs and the NJPWs. TNA started out that way, but they quickly rose above. I put it down to marketing.
    Production looks cool. It looks expensive but now showy. No Guady.

    It's worth a check out, if you wanna hop over to ROH.com and watch the latest episode. It might be your thing.

    But I think it's kind of a three star company. Not bad, but not good. A lot of boring talent and matches.

    Dalton Castle's the shit though.

    It's funny you talk about marketing being a problem. I agree. I mean, how do people not know you have a TV show?
    Quote Originally Posted by Djm View Post
    No.

    ROH has never been about trying to be the big #2 promotion, even after being bought by Sinclair. They have always been about their own identity, their own style.

    And that is something that won't ever cross over to large numbers, especially in the 90-plus percent fanbase of people that say they are wrestling fans, but are only WWE fans.

    TNA has always done something in the vein of sports-entertainment to varying degrees, for good or for ill. They've always gone after big big names, they've always tried to do things BIG. This has never been ROH's M.O and probably never will.

    And for that reason, they will never be as popular. Not until they get a weekly television show on a cable network, and have a MAJOR name sign with them full time.
    I don't know if ROH feel the same way that you do. I think in ROH's mind they're hardcore into trying to do things big. But as you said they do have their own style that doesn't translate.

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    feels so good JPC's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    I think people under value the drawing power of the pageantry in wresting which ROH can't offer. The high end slick look that WWE and TNA have go a long ways. I essentially only watch WWE and I can definitively say theres nearly nothing you could do to get me watch ROH in its current state on a regular basis. I know people love it and I'm not talking shit here but ROH is not aesthetically pleasing to watch. Its drab, depressing, and looks like the most successful backyard wresting show of all time.

    Not hating but just being honest. The glitz and glamour are a big part of why I'm a wrestling fan and i know I'm not and in that mind set.

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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JPC View Post
    I think people under value the drawing power of the pageantry in wresting which ROH can't offer. The high end slick look that WWE and TNA have go a long ways. I essentially only watch WWE and I can definitively say theres nearly nothing you could do to get me watch ROH in its current state on a regular basis. I know people love it and I'm not talking shit here but ROH is not aesthetically pleasing to watch. Its drab, depressing, and looks like the most successful backyard wresting show of all time.

    Not hating but just being honest. The glitz and glamour are a big part of why I'm a wrestling fan and i know I'm not and in that mind set.
    Production is important, no doubt about it.

    I love Chikara, best wrestling promotion in the world, I think. But I get excited in those first five minutes if the production/venue/design/lighting/staging/ is better than usual.

    I actually really like ROH's set up, if you watched anything from this year, you might agree.

    But yeah, I agree, you gotta be creative, especially if you don't have money.

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Dog Smith View Post

    Me: Do you ever watch Ring of Honor?

    Them: No, they don't have the TV show where I live.

    Me: You can watch it on their website. Completely free.

    Them: REally?
    Honestly, I was completely unaware of this. I have something to do on my next day off.
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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Slug View Post
    Honestly, I was completely unaware of this. I have something to do on my next day off.
    Yeah, pretty crazy, right? You'd think ROH wouldn't shut the fuck up about this.

    Instead they kind of treat it like an after thought, often airing episodes that lag behind their last PPV chronologically.

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    Senior Member Sea Slug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Dog Smith View Post
    Yeah, pretty crazy, right? You'd think ROH wouldn't shut the fuck up about this.

    Instead they kind of treat it like an after thought, often airing episodes that lag behind their last PPV chronologically.
    That's the difference between WWE (as well as TNA) and ROH: If the former has something to sell, they will ram it down your throat- possibly for $9.99.
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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    The biggest problem with ROH and their lack of mainstream success seams to be that the company is too nice. You never hear how ROH treats talent like crap. They never prevent their talent from moving up in the world to the WWE. They have a steady stream of talent that is in and out and nobody speaks poorly of the company and they don't bury talent on the way out. I have never seen a cease and desist letter sent to former talent over the use of stage names, monikers, catch-phrases etc.

    Sadly, to operate in this manner in the USA these days may bring you some "feel good" respect but it won't bring you a lot of "feel good" cash. The corporate mentality requires that everyone who wants to be anyone these days becomes a backstabbing, fine-print hiding scum bag in an expensive suit is more of a testament to our declining ethics than anything. I for one respect ROH and their refusal to chase success in a manner they don't have the heart for. I just wish they would run a few live shows or something I can watch regularly in my neck of the woods.

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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Slug View Post
    That's the difference between WWE (as well as TNA) and ROH: If the former has something to sell, they will ram it down your throat- possibly for $9.99.
    Haha, yeah, obviously ROH shouldn't go that far but I mean come on ...

    Try at least. Show me you want somebody to buy your product.

    Quote Originally Posted by bischoffs brain View Post
    The biggest problem with ROH and their lack of mainstream success seams to be that the company is too nice. You never hear how ROH treats talent like crap. They never prevent their talent from moving up in the world to the WWE. They have a steady stream of talent that is in and out and nobody speaks poorly of the company and they don't bury talent on the way out. I have never seen a cease and desist letter sent to former talent over the use of stage names, monikers, catch-phrases etc.

    Sadly, to operate in this manner in the USA these days may bring you some "feel good" respect but it won't bring you a lot of "feel good" cash. The corporate mentality requires that everyone who wants to be anyone these days becomes a backstabbing, fine-print hiding scum bag in an expensive suit is more of a testament to our declining ethics than anything. I for one respect ROH and their refusal to chase success in a manner they don't have the heart for. I just wish they would run a few live shows or something I can watch regularly in my neck of the woods.
    I disagree with this. If anything western society is making a cultural change towards ethics, not away from it.

    And while ROH is definitely a more ethical than the Great and the Devious WWE ...

    I think the real reason they don't do as well as they can is because their product isn't very good.

    DJM says, accurately, that they're trying something different. I'll go as far as to say that what they're trying ... MAY ACTUALLY APPEAL TO MORE PEOPLE than you'd think. I don't think ROH gets penalized for doing things the way they do them, I think they get penalized for doing things the way they do AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERY OTHER wrestling troupe.

    YES, they should do their very serious, very technical, wrestling based product where it's represented as a real sport.

    But NO, they shouldn't neglect every thing else too. They should do more characters, more storylines, more bizarre, zany Jerry Springer moments.

    Even if it's just one segment per show or TV taping of any of those things it will go a long way.

    Imagine if they did the same exact show, except instead of three matches presented the same way, there were only two and then you had a cool on location segment or talking segment or a cool promo or scene.

    It's a compromise I think every one can live with. EVen hardcore ring of honor fans probably don't really watch or fast forward through the weakest match on every episode. So cut it, I say, and make room for something that appeals to a different audiance, thus growing the core ROH audiance.

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    Senior Member Ed's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    1. ROH's TV product is awful. They tape their TV shows months in advance so their always behind timeline wise.
    2. They always put titles on people a year 2 late,Kyle is another example of this and I think it's a huge reason why he left.
    3. I find the product SUPER boring. Besides a Christopher Daniels, War Machine or Dalton Castle match I could careless about the product. Yeah I skim though stuff but reason #1 kills me excitement about anything that I may find interesting. I just grew tired of the best of the world rhetoric,having great matches just for the sake of having great matches with very little to no story behind it. Hey I'm the best no I'm the best! I find ROH's environment really rigid in most instances. To me ROH is like WWE in the opposite direction. I view WWE as Raw moreover where they try to have entertaining stories and sometimes they have wonderful characters but more often then not due to writing they only hit 1 note. They can't be as big as TNA because it's to wrestling heavy without enough character work.

    I fully admit I'm not nearly into ROH as I used to be so my opinion is bias but this is just my take.

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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    1. ROH's TV product is awful. They tape their TV shows months in advance so their always behind timeline wise.
    2. They always put titles on people a year 2 late,Kyle is another example of this and I think it's a huge reason why he left.
    3. I find the product SUPER boring. Besides a Christopher Daniels, War Machine or Dalton Castle match I could careless about the product. Yeah I skim though stuff but reason #1 kills me excitement about anything that I may find interesting. I just grew tired of the best of the world rhetoric,having great matches just for the sake of having great matches with very little to no story behind it. Hey I'm the best no I'm the best! I find ROH's environment really rigid in most instances. To me ROH is like WWE in the opposite direction. I view WWE as Raw moreover where they try to have entertaining stories and sometimes they have wonderful characters but more often then not due to writing they only hit 1 note. They can't be as big as TNA because it's to wrestling heavy without enough character work.

    I fully admit I'm not nearly into ROH as I used to be so my opinion is bias but this is just my take.
    Yeah, that's all pretty accurate in my opinion. Need a new booker ... I think that will solve all those problems.

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Umm. The reason gets VERY simple. RoH to exist needs to make profit. TNA does not as they work from the red and always have relied on investors.

    RoH IMO is too niche with everyone having the same best in the world attitude. CHIKARA seems the perfect blend of fun wrestling, serious wrestling and characters. I think Quack having no ambition to be a major player is key to his success though. He does not want to be TNA or even RoH. Seems like as long as he has his school and CHIKARA can operate and pays the bills he is good. When I hear people suggest what RoH should be, it often starts to sound more and more like CHIKARA anyway.


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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Engel View Post
    Umm. The reason gets VERY simple. RoH to exist needs to make profit. TNA does not as they work from the red and always have relied on investors.

    RoH IMO is too niche with everyone having the same best in the world attitude. CHIKARA seems the perfect blend of fun wrestling, serious wrestling and characters. I think Quack having no ambition to be a major player is key to his success though. He does not want to be TNA or even RoH. Seems like as long as he has his school and CHIKARA can operate and pays the bills he is good. When I hear people suggest what RoH should be, it often starts to sound more and more like CHIKARA anyway.
    Yeah, kind of, but way, way, way more serious.

    And also like I said, I think ROH actually has more mainstream appeal than Chikara, if they ever got exciting again. I mean, look how many ROH guys work in wwe.

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    but secretly C to the C Engel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Sadly, what is left behind is the current RoH roster as they never retire guys. So people WWE will not take become the RoH core. Over time, the core becomes not so great. Dream Team is solid gold, reDragon is good and Will Ospreay is a rising star, but a lot of the other guys just kind of are there and have been for a long, long time or are guys who really did not make it in WWE already.


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    Quickdraw McBald nazzer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    It's all about production quality. And the devil's in the details. Right now I'm on rohwretling.com watching the weekly tv show. Jay brriscoe Christopher Daniels in what I think what may be the main event. The match is fine, but there are a couple things which we wouldn't expect to see or hear from a quality tv product.

    The referee in the match is some tubby looking fat fuck. ROH presents themselves as 'wrestling', not as 'entertainment' if they are the sport of professional wrestling the referee shouldn't look like a 5th rate tubby fuck non athlete. The ref's in WWE are in good shape. Top league have top calibre athletes with good aesthetics. This tubby fuck doesn't look good and shouldn't be on my screen.

    Mark briscoe has just come to ringside and he's wearing a t shirt that looks to have been purchased from fucking wal mart in the discount rack and his cheap shorts were purchased from the clearance bin at k mart.

    Wrestlers are supposed to be heroes that we look up to , and ROH often makes them look like the common man. So many little details they just don't hit.

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Make Silas Young a bigger deal and maybe I'll watch.


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    Senior Member nath45's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    It's an independent company with independent aesthetics, with an independent foundation.

    It's a stepping stone, it's semi-pro, it's what you do for a few years then sign a WWE contract if you're good. It ain't going to be anything it's not, because the real talent doesn't stick around.

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    Senior Member BARCELONA's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    I've always felt ROH take themselves a little too seriously, which has always put me off. I mean, being professional is great, but this is still wrestling. I watch it for the wacky, over-the-top stuff that you wouldn't see in regular, actual fighting. If I want to watch serious fighting I'll find some MMA. It's always seemed to me that ROH has been too far over on the serious side of the scale to interest anybody outside of the niche fans that also regularly watch the likes of NJPW.

    There's obviously a market for what ROH do as they've been around a long time and assumedly make profit. It just won't ever be a big market, and they might be absolutely fine with that.

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Dog Smith View Post
    Haha, yeah, obviously ROH shouldn't go that far but I mean come on ...

    Try at least. Show me you want somebody to buy your product.



    I disagree with this. If anything western society is making a cultural change towards ethics, not away from it.

    I don't want to get too off subject but I couldn't let this comment go. I believe individuals not involved in the top levels of running a corporation(most of mankind) are improving ethically, its the corporations themselves that are heading backwards. The use of governments to get rid of labor unions and the way whistleblowers are treated like disloyal scum who are guilty of corporate treason are just a few of the issues we are headed backwards on. I would bet 95% of the American population believes that corporations (especially over paid CEO's)abuse power and yet we are too busy arguing over what bathrooms transgender high school students use to focus on the issues we all agree on.

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    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by bischoffs brain View Post
    I don't want to get too off subject but I couldn't let this comment go. I believe individuals not involved in the top levels of running a corporation(most of mankind) are improving ethically, its the corporations themselves that are heading backwards. The use of governments to get rid of labor unions and the way whistleblowers are treated like disloyal scum who are guilty of corporate treason are just a few of the issues we are headed backwards on. I would bet 95% of the American population believes that corporations (especially over paid CEO's)abuse power and yet we are too busy arguing over what bathrooms transgender high school students use to focus on the issues we all agree on.
    That's a very important issue to focus on, actually.

    But yeah, we should be focusing on more things and I think we slowly are. I know the rise of Trump and his policies are disturbing but I think it will all work out, after a few years of pain. Progress isn't a straight line upward. There are a lot of set backs.

  23. #23
    Anti-Anti-Smark Djm's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BARCELONA View Post
    I've always felt ROH take themselves a little too seriously, which has always put me off. I mean, being professional is great, but this is still wrestling. I watch it for the wacky, over-the-top stuff that you wouldn't see in regular, actual fighting. If I want to watch serious fighting I'll find some MMA. It's always seemed to me that ROH has been too far over on the serious side of the scale to interest anybody outside of the niche fans that also regularly watch the likes of NJPW.

    There's obviously a market for what ROH do as they've been around a long time and assumedly make profit. It just won't ever be a big market, and they might be absolutely fine with that.
    This is kind of how I see ROH, but I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing.

    Ring of Honor, since it's inception, has been a fantastic promotion if you like pro wrestling and appreciate the genre. If you're someone who is okay with pro wrestling being kind of trashy and being kind of a joke, ROH may not be for you, simply because it respects the craft.

    Ring of Honor isn't a great promotion for the day and of snarky people on YouTube looking for things to rant about, and angry internet wrestling boards. The people that enjoy complaining about wrestling over enjoying it.

    All of the stuff about production value, look and everything else is simply the sports-entertainment aesthetic that has become normalized thanks to WWE. ROH will never have those things, and if you're expecting them, you'll never like Ring of Honor.

    And a lot of people never will. A lot of people won't even watch Smackdown Live.
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  24. #24
    A touch of Destiny AgentRodimal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    ROH is still too 'bush' league when it comes to production value unfortunately and films their stuff way too far in advance. TNA is a trainwreck; no matter how much you want to you can't look away.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Mad Dog Smith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument: Ring of Honor should be as popular as TNA. But for some reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djm View Post
    This is kind of how I see ROH, but I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing.

    Ring of Honor, since it's inception, has been a fantastic promotion if you like pro wrestling and appreciate the genre. If you're someone who is okay with pro wrestling being kind of trashy and being kind of a joke, ROH may not be for you, simply because it respects the craft.

    Ring of Honor isn't a great promotion for the day and of snarky people on YouTube looking for things to rant about, and angry internet wrestling boards. The people that enjoy complaining about wrestling over enjoying it.

    All of the stuff about production value, look and everything else is simply the sports-entertainment aesthetic that has become normalized thanks to WWE. ROH will never have those things, and if you're expecting them, you'll never like Ring of Honor.

    And a lot of people never will. A lot of people won't even watch Smackdown Live.
    I disagree with a lot of this.

    WWE does a lot of bad, but normalizing production expectations and aspects of pro wrestling ROH doesn't want to touch? That's not on them. That's on ROH for not adapting or in some cases covered in this thread, even trying.

    Also about criticism. It didn't get invented with the internet, youtube, or any of that.

    If you're being criticized? Sure, you gotta sift through it. There's. a lot of criticism that won't help you at all. A lot of it is even bad advice.

    However, if you keep hearing the same thing over and over again from multiple people? The problem probably isn't the times you live, it's probably you.

    ROH needs to learn that. Pro Wreslting in general, is very anti-feedback. They really take offense to the fans offering suggestions and to complaints in general. I remember Matt MOrgan talking about how fat people shouldn't say he has issues with his in-ring work.

    BTW, just want to re-iterate, I think ROH has a FANTASTIC production right now. Much better than TNA's. For what it's worth.

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