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Thread: I hate Shawn Michaels

  1. #26
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    HBK was a massive primma dona back then and the amount of dirt on him is enough to bury the Big Show, but I never got the sense that Vader was going over. He was never really portrayed as anything more than just another hoss for HBK to slay and I think pairing him with Cornette did more harm than good since Jim was usually making all these dated references that felt completely out of place. And it wasn't like some last minute decision, HBK was beating Vader all across the country before the show, usually in fairly short fashion and by the end of it, the Vader-HBK matches were being booked to promote Goldust-HBK live event matches.

    Whether it was booking or Vader's personal issues, I'm not one to judge but he just wasn't getting over. It wasn't like his run in WCW drew big business either and it was really only in Japan he found any real success. While Sid wasn't a big mover or shaker, the guy always drew better reactions than Vader and was always over with the crowd, to the point where they cheered him beating HBK.

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    Senior Member kingmohd84's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    -Worst wrestler with politics-> Triple H . I hate the guy and I believe his politics put him where he is now, otherwise he is nothing special

    Second must be the nWo with how they ruined things in WCW killing younger talents and being arrogant, Hall said he went to wrestle drunk. But then again, they provided kind of the best entertainment in prowrestling history so... you judge.

    -When Vader was in the WWF he really seemed under-used, I guess he was to WWF what Bret was to WCW. He really had it all to be something on par with Goldberg 99 or Lesnar 2016. But IIRC he was shown more to be like a monster wrestler like Kane. I really could see Vader in the WWF as Hogan is in WCW.

    Of course its very easy to judge in retrospect, but back then when you are in the moment its very hard to call decisions that could easily make you or break you.
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    Senior Member MV's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    HBK was a massive primma dona back then and the amount of dirt on him is enough to bury the Big Show, but I never got the sense that Vader was going over. He was never really portrayed as anything more than just another hoss for HBK to slay and I think pairing him with Cornette did more harm than good since Jim was usually making all these dated references that felt completely out of place. And it wasn't like some last minute decision, HBK was beating Vader all across the country before the show, usually in fairly short fashion and by the end of it, the Vader-HBK matches were being booked to promote Goldust-HBK live event matches.

    Whether it was booking or Vader's personal issues, I'm not one to judge but he just wasn't getting over. It wasn't like his run in WCW drew big business either and it was really only in Japan he found any real success. While Sid wasn't a big mover or shaker, the guy always drew better reactions than Vader and was always over with the crowd, to the point where they cheered him beating HBK.
    His Japan ran always did seem to get the most praise.

  4. #29
    is not your buddy, guy.

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    I've hated Shawn Michaels ever since his feud with Bret Hart. It's actually illegal in Canada to cheer for Shawn Michaels. #NeverForget

  5. #30
    They still play defense? The Real LT's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    -Worst wrestler with politics-> Triple H . I hate the guy and I believe his politics put him where he is now, otherwise he is nothing special
    Politics may be a big reason he stayed on top, but make no mistake, he worked his ass off to get there in the first place.

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    Senior Member MV's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    He definitely did. Probably had the best character evolutions (no pun intended) out of the wrestlers still remaining from '90's WWE.

  7. #32
    Ravishing Slick Dude KashDinero's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by Djm View Post
    Shawn's Texas Wrestling Academy gave Bryan, Lance Cade, Brian Kendrick and others their first spot. Shawn was there, but he wasn't the HEAD TRAINER. That was Rudy Boy Gonzalez. Shawn was able to get some of his guys developmental contracts, bookings in various territories, and Japan as well. Shawn and Rudy Boy was the one in the very early beginnings, pre-Regal.

    When it came to Bryan getting superkicked, it didn't really phase me. Probably because at that point I was at the lowest point of my wrestling fandom in years, maybe ever, and nothing resonated with me. Also, I had no expectations of Shawn coming back to put Bryan over beyond what he did---getting put in the Yes Lock. I was fine with it. It was more of the WWE Status Quo that had already worn my fandom down to almost nothing and killed my soul.

    On the Vader thing...yeah, that was bullshit. It absolutely was. Being a Booker T fan and given my undying hatred of HHH, I can relate to a certain degree.
    Love mostly all first, second and third class TWA students. Paul London, Michael Shane, Biohazard, Hernandez, Don Juan, Fast Eddie... Ahh, good times, great memories.

    HHH has argubaly done more good recently than HBK did during his post 98 Maximum Prick phase. Has he redeemed himself a little? I still personally struggle to accept he has done all these great things yet I still can't forgive the Booker T mania feud and match. I wanna, but 14 years later and it's still too soon. Let's also not forget Haitch actually forced his way into the WM main event last year by actually winning the RR. Randy winning this year isn't nearly half as bad as TOP Shawn Michaels student, Terra Ryzing, doing the dirty on the rest of the roster.

    Also wanna point out that Davey was supposed to go over in the rematch on the second UK PPV. Clearly something came up in the interim that prevented that. Not saying it was the best call and it wasn't YET ANOTHER self serving act by a paranoid, pill reliant, Coke addled, degenerate, because it was, but, yeah, that's the story anyway.

    Also, Nash likes to claim The Clique never sabotaged Bigelows career. He also says he and Shawn resented the fact Bam Bam and LT main evented XI. My gut tells me they never got over missing out on the headline spot at Mania despite freely and privately admitting BBB was good for business. Those guyd just could not help themselves from causing problems for others.
    Last edited by KashDinero; 02-11-2017 at 09:58 PM.
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  8. #33
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    The Booker T & Vader comparison is interesting.

    Neither guy was ever booked like they were going to win, but both were poorly treated at different points. Once HHH made it a 'race' angle, he really should have bit the bullet and taken the L because he worked himself into a corner. Cena did a similar thing in 2009 with Sheamus, where he ran him down before the match to the point where it was do or die for Sheamus and they had to pull the trigger if they were ever going to capitilise on him. However, the match itself was fantastic, Booker T doesn't have an issue with it and actually seems proud he got a championship match at Wrestlemania which reconfirms that Booker T is one of the cool guys in Pro Wrestling.

    On the other hand, Vader was portrayed as just another monster of the week type deal brought in by Jim Cornette who was like a Power Rangers villain summoning more monsters for the babyfaces to slay. There was no sign that Shawn was going to drop the belt at SummerSlam and the only negative against Shawn was how unprofessional he was. Not only in that match, but there were various incidents leading up to the show where Shawn would break kayfabe due to production issues or guys blowing spots in the match. It wasn't a good look, but other guys have broken character in the ring before and I've never seen Vince call an audible because a guy like Orton lost his shit. If anything, Randy kept getting pushed despite being box office poison.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As far as Michaels goes, I'm way more familiar with his post-back surgery phase than his first run with the company.

    My first memory of Shawn was his random appearance at Wrestlemania XV. Vince was trying to position himself as the special guest referee for the Austin/Rock match and this weird looking Cowboy wannabe wasn't having any of it. The segment made absolutely no sense, but Shawn instantly won me over with his cheesy theme music and his voice that reminded me of Rowlf from the Muppets.

    Between that segment and return, Shawn was just this cool guest star that would rock up, would tease something and then just disappear again. I had no idea what the deal was, but I dug the tease and the only time I really hated Shawn as an on-screen character was Judgement Day 2000 with that awful finish.

    So eventually he's brought back in to save the nWo who had a become a punchline by this point. There wasn't a lot to like about the nWo at that time, but one of the best segments was HBK 'booting' Booker T out of the faction with one of the best superkicks of all-time. However, that couldn't save the nWo so they paired him up with HHH and it looked like we were going to get the return of DX. I was never a huge DX fan, but I thought it was just the tonic HHH needed as he went from one of the best performers in the biz in 2000-01 to a denim wearing buzz kill who was stinking the joint up.

    Of course the return didn't eventuate and what ended up happening was far cooler, a HHH v HBK match. While my opinion has lessened over time, when it originally happened it looked and sounded like the greatest match ever (on the Gamefaqs board, where all the Pro Wrestling experts gathered and discussed the finer points of the biz). Even now, while I have problems with it, I still think it's worth celebrating given the context of the match. The fact that it was Shawn's first match back and HHH had been an absolute bore to watch in the ring.

    Call me naive, but I thought that was Shawn's last rodeo. I didn't think he'd be back again, and was so hyped when he was revealed as a participant for Survivor Series 2002. For what it's worth, that's one of my favourite WWE shows of all-time and I actually remember following that show right here on PW.com! The match seemed absolutely perfect at the time with one exception. Not only was HBK sporting one of the worst haircuts I've ever seen on a wrestler, he also wore the worst tights I've seen as well. Normally I didn't care, but the poo brown tights were just so obvious that it seriously took away from the match. Thinking back on it, between HHH, HBK and Jericho I have no idea who the WWE employed as the stylist, but they were freakin' awful.

    But yeah...finally the HHH era was over and I was hankering for some more HBK dream matches. HBK v Rob Van Dam, Chris Jericho, Booker T, Ric Flair, hell I'd even enjoy a HBK v Lance Storm match. I had it all mapped out in my mind and couldn't wait to see what the future held.

    One PPV later and HHH was back on top and would go onto have one of the worst feuds I'd ever seen against Scott Steiner.

    I was so bummed and it was such a crummy way to cap off 2002 as a Pro Wrestling fan. Not only did my new favourite wrestler drop the belt way too early, but my other favourite turned out to be a massive piece of shit, Foley was on bad terms with the company and was unsighted and Goldberg hadn't wrestled since he was retired by Buff freakin' Bagwell and Lex Luger. Of course that would all change and all three of those guys would return, but my memory of HBK is real foggy around this time.

    He beat Jericho at Wrestlemania, in another match I thought was an 'instant classic' but beyond that I have no recollection of anything until Survivor Series 2003. That was the show where Austin's career was on the line in a Survivor Series match and HBK was the star member of his team. Once again, Shawn stole the show for me and that match was one of the best Survivor Series bouts I'd seen, in fact, it was the best Survivor Series match I'd seen and I was so bummed Austin had lost. While I felt incredibly betrayed by Austin for all of his personal mumbo jumbo, I always liked the character and in a weird way learned the power of forgiveness and what it means. Who said Pro Wrestling rots your brain?

    From here it's basically just a cycle of HBK having 'great' matches with HHH, Kurt Angle, John Cena, Ric Flair, Chris Jericho and The Undertaker until he retired. The only time I didn't care for Shawn was D-X 2006 and that was because I thought the feud against the Spirit Squad and Vince was a huge waste of time. Also if Survivor Series 2003 was one of the best Survivor Series style bouts of all-time, 2006 was the worst. I hated what they did to Rated RKO and my interest in the product diminished significantly.

    Looking back though, I'm in a weird position with HBK. While I really enjoyed the run at the time, I also didn't have much of a context to go off of. When all you've seen is WCW & WWF Television from 1999 just about any effort to have a great match is bound to be amazing. On the other hand, when you're constantly comparing everything to classic matches from Mexico, Japan and America you're going to miss the context of where the style was at or the details leading up to the feud that made the results that much sweeter. While I've had the pleasure of watching a lot of amazing performers from all around the world, I enjoyed Shawn's work for a solid 8 years and I can't look past that.

    I will say I enjoyed HBK more in 1997 than any other year where he just embraced his inner dickhead and I thought as a character Shawn was pretty boring after his initial return but I've waffled on enough.

  9. #34
    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I honestly think Vader should have retired after that cage match with Hogan at Bash at the Beach in 1995. He was never the same athletically after that, and nothing he did after that really worked especially well, whether from his own doing (attitude, injuries) or others (booking, Shawn Michaels, etc.). Yeah, he would have missed out on a WWE run and the associated money and international exposure, but I don't think he was physically built for the taxing WWE schedule (especially at age 40, carrying injuries and wear-and-tear), nor did his wrestling style really suit how WWE presented things, nor did he really seem to click personally or creatively with too many people within the organisation.

  10. #35
    Senior Member vendrell's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Vader couldn't even best Mr. Feeny on Boy Meets World for Christ sake. What hope did he have in thumping Shawn Michaels?

    But yeah Shawn was a dick. Such a dick to the Rock apparently that the Rock just flat out refused to ever work with the guy. Granted their time lines barely ever matched up but it certainly could have happened. I remember back when HBK was doing the short lived NWO revamp, he took a shot at the rock for trying to steal HHH's spotlight or something to that effect. It was weird and very random as the Rock wasn't even on tv and was off filming a movie so he really had no reason to say it other than just to be a dick.

  11. #36
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    When The Rock debuted at Suvivor Series '96, Vince fell in love with him right away and wanted to strap a rocket on him at HHH's expense. At that time, Hunter was HBK's only confidant so he did everything he could to ruin The Rock before his career ever launched.

    You never forget those type of things, even when you become as successful as The Rock.

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    Senior Member MV's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by vendrell
    Vader couldn't even best Mr. Feeny on Boy Meets World for Christ sake. What hope did he have in thumping Shawn Michaels?

    But yeah Shawn was a dick. Such a dick to the Rock apparently that the Rock just flat out refused to ever work with the guy. Granted their time lines barely ever matched up but it certainly could have happened. I remember back when HBK was doing the short lived NWO revamp, he took a shot at the rock for trying to steal HHH's spotlight or something to that effect. It was weird and very random as the Rock wasn't even on tv and was off filming a movie so he really had no reason to say it other than just to be a dick.
    This was great.

  13. #38
    No, You Don't Want None! mx518's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Meh, I always thought both Shawn and Bret were overrated. Shawn was a total asshole to everyone. Bret always took himself way too seriously.

  14. #39
    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    When The Rock debuted at Suvivor Series '96, Vince fell in love with him right away and wanted to strap a rocket on him at HHH's expense. At that time, Hunter was HBK's only confidant so he did everything he could to ruin The Rock before his career ever launched.

    You never forget those type of things, even when you become as successful as The Rock.
    Would have been a great storyline for a match.

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    I feel kinda invincible Kilgore's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    The whole premise of The Rock stealing Triple H's shine is a rather hilarious one when you remember nobody gave a shit about Triple H in 1996 while he was in a neverending feud with Motherfucking Marc Mero. The gall of Vince to be a higher on the next prospect in November of 1996, and that's without even considering that the prospect turned out to be The Rock. Triple H didn't become interesting until 1997, when Chyna debuted, and Shawn decided to rip off the nWo with the only Kliq member left.


  16. #41
    Senior Member vendrell's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by mx518 View Post
    Meh, I always thought both Shawn and Bret were overrated. Shawn was a total asshole to everyone. Bret always took himself way too seriously.
    I don't know about that. I mean as far as an in ring performer from the mic to the wrestling, I don't know if anybody did it quite as good as HBK, asshole or not, or was a damn good performer. Bret I think is more liked in his head than in reality. He talks himself up like he was beloved backstage by the little guys, a real champion of the people. Bret was just a big an ego maniac as a lot of other top stars. In the ring he was great and on the mic he was...passable. His canadian hero routine was when Bret really found himself on the mic.

  17. #42
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Looking back, there's only one window of time where I cared about Michaels as a character, and that's the Summer of '97 to his initial retirement in early '98.

    Which isn't to say he was terrible, but he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Flair, Savage, Austin, Angle etc.

  18. #43
    Senior Member vendrell's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    Looking back, there's only one window of time where I cared about Michaels as a character, and that's the Summer of '97 to his initial retirement in early '98.

    Which isn't to say he was terrible, but he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Flair, Savage, Austin, Angle etc.
    Couldn't disagree more. Granted I've never really been as crazy about Ric Flair as everybody else, I mean don't get me wrong he is truly one of the all time greats but I put HBK ahead of him easily. Same with Angle. I love Savage but the WCW years really cut the guy off at the knees aside from the awesome DDP feud. It just sucked for Savage that he was always Hogan's whipping boy or his lackey in WCW...and I guess WWE for that matter. Austin...ok I'll give you that one. HBK was never as red hot as Austin was but then again you can say that about anybody not named Hulk Hogan or The Rock. Those 3 are in a class all their own. That is just me though. I've always been a HBK mark no matter if he was a prick or not backstage. Specifically though that period you mentioned the summer of 1997 into the early days of DX, he was fantastic. Before that I liked him but he was hammy. His return though in 2002 and beyond, he had such an amazing second half of his career that really saved his legacy. If he hadn't returned, I don't know if HBK's body of in ring work would really even qualify him as a hall of famer...then again if Koko B. Ware is in there I guess HBK would be a shoe in if he hadn't come back but I think you get what I'm trying to say, the second half of his career truly made HBK a legend...I don't think I would say that about him had he not had it.

  19. #44
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    I can understand enjoying Shawn's work as an in-ring competitor, but what was his personality after his return?

  20. #45
    Senior Member vendrell's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    I can understand enjoying Shawn's work as an in-ring competitor, but what was his personality after his return?
    From what I understand he toned down his dickishness. I don't think he's quite the saint that he portrays himself as after getting "saved" and blah blah blah, I've heard some things about him that he still could be an ass during the second half of his career but if your a top guy in pro wrestling I just kind of assume your an asshole. I mean as much as we all loved Steve Austin, he beat the shit out of a woman in real life. That is way worse than HBK being an obnoxious tool backstage.

  21. #46
    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Sorry, I meant what type of personality did he have on-screen. I couldn't give a rats if the guy was still a dick backstage, it doesn't affect anyone of us as a fan.

    Because I feel it's fair to say he had all the personality sucked out of him and he was merely a relic of an older generation.

  22. #47
    Still Relevant! Ness's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    I didn't become a fan until Highway to Hell, so I missed HBK's original run. It's not the same watching it via archive, but man his second run while plenty of great matches... it was dry from a character standpoint. It's funny if I lived it on the IWC I would hate Shawn's antics... yet without those same dick moves I found him so boring.

    That and what was with that haircut when he won the belt?

    Don't have much else to contribute. Fuck Shawn and his Mama.

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    I feel kinda invincible Kilgore's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ness View Post
    That and what was with that haircut when he won the belt?
    He was transitioning the mullet to one length.


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    Senior Member Jack Nichols's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    My only question is would Shawn have been that "great" or gotten to the position he got to without being the "asshole" that he is so famous for being?

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    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Default Re: I hate Shawn Michaels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ness View Post
    That and what was with that haircut when he won the belt?
    Between that and those horrible brown tights, I think he was trying to look like Errol Flynn in 'The Adventures of Robin Hood', but he looked more like an old woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
    He was transitioning the mullet to one length.
    Hadn't he pretty much done that already by the end of 1995?

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