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Thread: Warren Moon

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Warren Moon

    I found a pretty epic Youtube video of every touchdown he ever threw in the NFL(I think), from his early days in Houston to his run with the Vikings and his final seasons in Seattle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA58vdYSwsQ

    Moon couldn't get a job in the racist NFL of the late 70's/early 80's(you could probably count the black quarterbacks in the first 60 years of NFL history on one hand) so he went to the CFL and dominated. He was one of the most saught after free agents after he broke all the records and won a bunch of CFL titles. Oilers/Titans owner Bud Adams broke out his pocket book and signed Moon's coach from either CFL or College, I forget, this ended up bringing Moon to Houston with a huge money contract. They sucked under his coach but they gradually built a team loaded with talent, by 1987 he started to really shine. He played really well even though they had a bunk offensive scheme under Jerry Glanville. They dumped Glanville and brought in Houston Cougars coach Jack Pardee but they never could get over the hump in the late 80's-early 90's, even though they made the playoffs like 7 consecutive seasons. Then when the Bills posted that comeback in 92(25 years anniversary this year) Moon started to really feel the heat from the media and fans and I think it started to effect his performance in the 93 season when he struggled out of the gate(and got benched after they started 1-4 that year).

    The Oilers dumped Moon after the 93 season and traded him to the Vikings for a 6th round draft pick. He played well for the Vikings in 94 and 95 but struggled in 96 and eventually got benched for Brad Johnson. The Vikings traded Moon to Seattle in 97 where he was set to backup John Friez. Friez ended up getting hurt and Moon came in to have one of his best and most underrated seasons in 97, helping Seattle get to an 8-8 record with some tough wins.

    What do/did you think of Warren Moon? I find his 1997 season very interesting to look back on because there were so many teams that year in need of a quarterback and so many of them passed on Moon, thinking he was done. I know the Redskins picked up Jeff Hostetler to back up Gus Frerrotte that year when they could have gone for Moon and it would have been a way better move(they barely missed the playoffs that year at 8-7-1 after Gus headbutted a wall and gave himself a concussion). Where would you put Moon on the all time great quarterbacks discussion? Why did he never win a Super Bowl? I don't know why I started this thread really, I just seen the video and thought it was pretty sweet. Check it out, some really amazing throws there towards the end of the video in his Vikings/Seahawks days.

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    Leaf & Rider Prider CM Punk'd's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    Warren Moon is a definite Top 10 all-time quarterback.

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    Senior Member Jack Nichols's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    My guy growing up was Dan Marino and I'd probably say Warren Moon was next. He seemed like a tough son of a bitch. I'm not sure about top ten but definitely top 20 I'd say around 15-20.

    Whats interesting is no team picked him in the draft and he spent 5 or 6 years in the CFL and put up some great numbers there too.

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    He owned the Chiefs right up until the 93 playoffs when Montana snuck the Chiefs past him in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    He owned the Chiefs right up until the 93 playoffs when Montana snuck the Chiefs past him in the playoffs.
    That game almost single-handedly caused the Oilers to move to Tennessee.

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    I think Moon set an all time NFL record in that 93 Chiefs playoff game for fumbles(I think he fumbled like 8 times). The three playoff losses in 91, 92, 93 definitely killed the Oilers, but to me thinking about those games now I think about how great those teams were that beat them, and how great the actual games were. The 91 loss to Denver(The Drive II) was a fucking battle, the loss to Buffalo was probably one of the greatest football games ever played, and the 93 loss to the Chiefs was another war where we got beat by Joe fucking Montana and a team loaded with future hall of famers. I watched the 91 loss to the Broncos a year ago on Youtube and it was hard to watch, they were winning with only like a minute left on the clock and had Elway pinned deep on 4th and 8 and he ends up running for a first, then drives them the rest of the way for the field goal, Mile High stadium was going ape shit, it was a great comeback. The loss to the Chiefs in 93 is definitely one of my most memorable NFL games, it was such a huge deal at the time, there was so much hype for that game in Houston, even though they choked so badly the year before the general feeling going into that game was that we were going to win(Cowboys vs Oilers Superbowl was being talked about a lot). When they lost was when everyone gave up on them completely.

    I still think the major problem with the Warren Moon Oilers was that offensive system, the run and shoot, or as Buddy Ryan called it, the "Chuck and Duck". I think they should have fired Jack Pardee after the 92 playoff loss and just let Buddy Ryan coach the team. I just read a fantastic article about the Run and Shoot offense from 1994. It says that the run and shoot came from the USFL with the Houston Gamblers coached by Jack Pardee. I did not know that Pardee coached the Gamblers, I knew that he coached the Redskins for a brief run before the Gibbs era and that he coached the Houston Cougars in NCAA before he got the Oilers job after they fired Jerry Glanville. The Houston Gamblers had Pardee as head coach, Jim Kelly as quarterback, and a guy named Darrel Davis as offensive coordinator. The run and shoot was 4 receivers, a running back, and the quarterback in modified shotgun formation. This was done before but not as an every down offense until the Houston Gamblers in the USFL. Another factor of this offense was that there were NO TIGHT ENDS, I mean like none period on the entire roster. It was designed to be fast quick read throws to small fast receivers running quick hooks, curls, and outs. Every receiver had breakoff options with every route depending on the coverage, the whole system was about timing.

    When the USFL folded the run and shoot started popping up in the NFL, the Falcons, Lions, Redskins, and Bills all used versions of this but they would use tight ends a lot. In 1990 Pardee got the Oilers job and his OC from the Gamblers Darrel Davis was OC in Detroit for the Lions. So the Lions and Oilers were using a pure run and shoot offense. NFL defenses struggled to find something to stop the run and shoot at first until they realized that sheer power and brutality was the answer, case in point the Buddy Ryan Eagles beating the fuck out of the Oilers little receivers, also the Giants and Redskins using big physical linebackers playing short zone defense to pummel the Bills in Super Bowl XXV and XXVI. So ball/clock control power offense and a type of defense that would be fined and penalized in today's era was the answer to stop the run and shoot in the 90's.

    The famous quote from Parcells after Super Bowl XXV says it all about the Run and Shoot offense, somebody asked Bill if that win vindicated Parcells' type of football. He replied saying; "It never needed it, it's this fancy stuff that has to prove itself."

    By 1993 the defenses of the NFL had the Run and Shoot figured out. The Oilers offense struggled badly that year, Moon threw like 21 interceptions vs 21 touchdown passes if I remember correctly. They beat him up so bad in that playoff game vs the Chiefs. In 1994 the Oilers finally signed some fucking tight ends but they traded Moon away banking on Cody Carlson to be their future(he suffered a career ending injury in like the first game, they went through like 6 quarterbacks over the next couple of years while Moon was breaking Vikings franchise passing records). The run and shoot was about dead. Defense was in the rise in 93, the average yards per completion in the league that year was 11.55 the lowest ever in NFL history up to that point. Offensive touchdowns were also at an all time low in 93.

    It's fun to think about how Moon would have played in today's rules, I can't even imagine the numbers he would have put up.
    Last edited by ShinobiMusashi; 10-09-2016 at 10:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    Some interesting Warren Moon stats/facts:

    7th all time leader in passes completed(3,988)

    7th all time leader in passing yards(49,325)

    9th all time leader in passing touchdowns(291)

    2nd all time leader in fumbles(quarterbacks) in NFL history(behind only Bret Favre)

    527 passing yards against the Chiefs in 1990 is second most in a single game in NFL history

    Highest rated quarterback in Madden 92, Madden 93, and second highest rated QB in Madden 94(behind Cunningham who has a higher speed rating but Moon has higher range and accuracy rating), maybe the best quarterback in Tecmo Super Bowl? If not the best than he's at least in the top 3(Montana and Eagles QB are up there as well).

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    They still play defense? The Real LT's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinobiMusashi View Post
    Some interesting Warren Moon stats/facts:

    7th all time leader in passes completed(3,988)

    7th all time leader in passing yards(49,325)

    9th all time leader in passing touchdowns(291)

    2nd all time leader in fumbles(quarterbacks) in NFL history(behind only Bret Favre)

    527 passing yards against the Chiefs in 1990 is second most in a single game in NFL history

    Highest rated quarterback in Madden 92, Madden 93, and second highest rated QB in Madden 94(behind Cunningham who has a higher speed rating but Moon has higher range and accuracy rating), maybe the best quarterback in Tecmo Super Bowl? If not the best than he's at least in the top 3(Montana and Eagles QB are up there as well).
    I think a big part of that was Moon running the Chuck and Duck....err. The Run and Shoot for so many years. The pass protection in that offense was VERY weak given that there were no tight ends and only one back. Even worse the QB would be under center as well. If you didn't get the ball out quickly you were pretty much dog food for any blitzing linebacker or safety.

    The Oilers mitigated that a bit by lining Moon in a shotgun in their run and shoot but he still took a lot of nasty shots.
    Last edited by The Real LT; 10-12-2016 at 06:26 PM.

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    Senior Member The Icon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by CM Punk'd View Post
    Warren Moon is a definite Top 10 all-time quarterback.
    Warren Moon to Brian Kelly was engrained in my dad's brain in the early 80's as one of the most lethal QB/receiver combo's in CFL history. Yet somehow the Riders did get one win over the dominate Esks in Commonwealth no less in a memorable 1982 regular season tilt (this was like the Saints beating the 'Niner's back in the 80's.) He was the first QB to pass for 5000 yards in a season in the CFL and for a time was pro football's all time leading passer. He was my favorite QB growing up even though personally I only remember the tail end of his CFL career. Those run and shoot Oilers teams were so exciting to watch though with Haywood Jeffires, Ernest Givins and Drew Hill torching defenses. One of the best pure passers of all time who was hindered a bit by his pass protection as mentioned in other posts.

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    Commitment to Excellence ORaider27's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    At the time, Moon was my pick for second best QB of the late 80s/early 90s behind Marino. I loved watching Houston during those years.

    One of the things that gets overlooked a lot about Moon was his ability to keep plays alive. I would not have called him fast, maybe fast for a QB of that era (who were mostly slow footed pocket passers like Kelly and Marino) but Moon was able to move, run rollouts and avoid sacks better than most and he had one of the best arms in the NFL at that time. He threw a beautiful and accurate deep pass.

    As others mentioned, Moon took a beating in the run and shoot. But he also picked defenses apart like the elites do when given time. In today's NFL, Moon would post Brees like numbers.

    Interesting fact about Davis' run and shoot. He got the idea for the offense watching school kids play a pickup game. He noticed that the QB was only calling a few routes and the receivers would decide at the line which one to run based on where the defenders were. His initial offense didn't really have a large number of plays compared to the average playbook. In fact, it was smaller having only a few set plays. However, the receivers had option routes that were keyed to the defenders. It was usually a choice of an inside cut or an outside cut or a short route and a long one. Concepts from the run and shoot live on in most of today's passing offenses and the read option. It also borrowed heavily from Walsh's WCO.

    The biggest problem of the offense besides protecting the QB was its inability to eat clock. The Comeback happened because incomplete passes stopped the clock, lengthening the game while the fast pace of both offenses wore out the defenses.

    The offense lived on in Detroit longer than anywhere else mainly because they were the only team to have a truly great RB in the backfield in Barry Sanders. People often forget that Sanders spent most of his career in the offense. He had no fullback or tight-ends blocking for him and his line was often average or worse.

    Moons line was much better. But overloading the line was easy and heavy blitzing was the best way to disrupt it. No QB truly excels when they have pass rushers hitting them on nearly every play. But Moon made that offense work better than most. My dream backfield during those years was Moon handing off to Sanders.
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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    Interesting stuff. Something I thought about while reading that was the 1991 hogs and how they played 3 run and shoot teams that year, the Oilers, Falcons, and the Lions, with a rematch against Atlanta in the divisional playoffs and a rematch with Detroit in the NFC Championship, they beat the Falcons and Lions badly but the Oilers gave them the most trouble, taking them into overtime(low scoring defensive game). Joe Gibbs defense that year was incredible, Darrell Green in his prime, Charles Mann up front and Wilbur Marshall(from the 85 Bears) playing lb. Gibbs had the run and shoot figured out as far as shutting it down. Washington won 5 games total against that offense that year, 6 if you want to count Buffalo in the Super Bowl.

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    Commitment to Excellence ORaider27's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    I loved that Washington team. During the Gibbs years, Washington was my favorite NFC team. I watched them a lot.

    The run and shoot put an emphasis on speed and quick tempo. That usually carried over to the defenses as well which were mainly designed to stop the pass and featured smaller, faster defenses. The assumption was that teams would abandon the run out of neccessity and then Houston could win the track meet. Houston was also one of the few teams that was able to pair the offense with a great defense. But the rest of the teams that featured it could be beat by a power running game, which Washington had throughout Gibbs' run there. His offense was also explosive, being a version of Coryell's WCO and featured 3 excellent wide receivers as well in The Posse. I remember Monk and Clark were both great. Ricky Sanders was lethal out of the slot because of his speed and run after catch ability.

    Gibbs team was the perfect team to match up against a run and shoot as it featured a dominant defense, a power running game and deep passing attack with a three headed monster at both RB and WR. That team made most of the NFL look bad that year. Such a great team.
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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    This randomly played on Youtube autoplay so I watched most of it, 13-2 49ers at the 7-8 Seattle Seahawks in the final game of the 97 regular season:



    Oilers sent him packing for a 4th round pick in 94, then he lost the Vikings starting job to Brad Johnson in 96, quite a few teams looking for a quarterback passed on 41 year old Warren Moon at the start of the 97 season, Seattle took a chance on him and he came in and had one of his best seasons. Watching that video I never realized how much talent was on that team, rookie Walter Jones and Kevin Mawae on the offensive line, Mack Strong was a great fullback(I believe he was a rookie in this game as well, if not it was one of his first years in the league, he picks up a pancake block on Ken Norton Jr. at one point during this game), Joey Galloway had really good chemistry with Moon that year. The defense had some big injuries early on(Cortez Kennedy was lost for the season by week 8, Bennie Blades missed 7 games) so they struggled on defense and the running game also wasn't all that hot. Moon played really well though, 313/528(59.3%), 3,678 yards, 25 touchdown passes vs 16 interceptions, he had 3 fourth quarter comebacks and led the Seahawks on 4 game winning drives.

    He had some excellent throws in that video, first touchdown was nice: https://youtu.be/RXuFEHEy5SU?t=34m19s

    Even better throw, beautiful: https://youtu.be/RXuFEHEy5SU?t=42m47s

    His third touchdown pass of the game was the best one though, just right on the fucking money: https://youtu.be/RXuFEHEy5SU?t=49m7s

    Actually his fourth touchdown pass was even better than that, check out the fucking spiral on this motherfucker: https://youtu.be/RXuFEHEy5SU?t=1h32m43s

    Motherfucker was bad ass, even at 41 years old.

    Edit: Just took a closer look at the Seahawks 98 season with Moon, he got off to a great start as the Seahawks came out 3-0, took a beating in their games after that against Pittsburgh and Denver and just never really recovered from it, struggled and threw a lot of interceptions before getting benched for the last 6 games for Jon Kitna. They got rid of Mawae and brought in 35 year old Kevin Glover to play center, he got hurt and missed 8 games due to injuries, Seahawks ended up finishing 8-8 again. Moon played his last 2 years 1999-2000 for Kansas City but he was a backup and only started 1 game during that span.
    Last edited by ShinobiMusashi; 05-14-2017 at 10:53 PM.

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warren Moon

    Look what I just found:



    Good one.

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