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Thread: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

  1. #1
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    Default It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    I just couldn't stay away. I clearly you guys way too much.

    These two posts caught my eyes within seconds of logging on this morning:

    Quote Originally Posted by Repperton View Post
    All Cena really needs is some time off. That will freshen up the character more than anything else that would actually happen. 6 months out. Cena comes back at SS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Repperton View Post
    Reigns shouldn't go over Ambrose at Mania. Heel needs the heat more than Reigns needs the cheering he will get with out without the win. Ambrose pulls out a cheap victory, gloats about it while ducking the rematch until Summerslam. Easy booking.
    Now rather than derail those threads with my bullshit, I figured it would be best for everyone if we had a thread dedicated specifically to my bullshit.

    The thought-process on display in these posts make no sense to me. They don't account for the fact that sometime over the last 25 years or so, wrestling's evolved a little. WWE produces more original television content now than at any time during their history. While taking something slow is a concept I appreciate, deciding you're just going to pump the breaks on something until the next of the "big four" PPVs isn't really viable in 2014. First of all, things burn out faster than they did back in the day. Second of all, it's inorganic. Moreover, it conditions people not to care about the content between those "major" shows. A smart booker would have a general idea where they're going but always be willing to switch things up, play it by ear, and cut things short as need be.

    Can someone explain to me why so many wrestling fans think the SummerSlam midcard needs to be damn near set in stone in February?

    "Eventually Reigns is going to catch up with Ambrose and crucify him" seems like a more useful mindset than "WE'VE GOTTA PUMP THE BREAKS TILL SUMMERSLAM, LONGTERM-BOOKING HURR DURR WANKWANK!!"

  2. #2
    The Silver-Tongued Devil DC's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Oy vey.

    You do understand that long-term planning is essential to crafting coherent storylines in an entertainment product, yes?

    WWE does too much "playing it by ear" and booking on the fly. It's evident in the quality of the product, especially in regards to mid-card programs. There is no consistency and little direction. It all seems to happen haphazardly, and the product and talent suffer as a result.

    I'm not saying SummerSlam needs to be set in stone in February. But WWE doesn't do a good job of figuring out where they want to go, and then working out how to get there. I would rather they err on the side of additional structure than continue to flounder and rewrite shows the day of.

    I don't understand what is so evil about wanting shows written days in advance, PPVs planned out well in advance, and storylines at least penciled in so WWE knows what direction it's going with everything and at least has the highlights worked out so they can properly build to them. That doesn't mean being inflexible. But it means knowing where you actually want to go, and when, so that you actually have a chance getting there.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by DC The Champ View Post
    You do understand that long-term planning is essential to crafting coherent storylines in an entertainment product, yes?
    Essential? No. I don't believe that to be true. I believe it's a tool at the disposal of creative people, but I don't believe it's essential.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Don't people realise that every time Cena does get time off, WWE goes into some sort of mess that leads to his comeback in like 2 weeks?

    I love the Cena character as it is, which is just himself. Which is great.
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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    I think longterm booking while always looking ahead would help WWE immensely. Like Punk said in that interview, they are just now trying to put the pieces together for this year's Wrestlemania, but if it were his company Mania would've been planned months ago and he'd already be in the early stages of planning Wrestlemania 31.

    But I also don't think WWE should stick to their longterm ideas no matter what. If a guy's push isn't working out the way they intended or whatever, they could tweak their plans where needed.

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    Senior Member Sayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    That's why CM Punk is a wrestler and not a booker.

    That's easy for Punk to say since it appeals to the fans but Coco's right, it's just not feasible to do anymore. At least 30 things will change between now and next year, so there really isn't any point in booking a year in advance unless it's one match ala Rock/Punk or Rock/Cena,

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    You need a mixture of both long term and short term booking. they work hand in hand with each other. Traditionally you used the shows on free tv to build towards the money shows that people put out extra money to watch. they pay for the viewing. They call that Pay-Per-View. It's a build and a process. You need multiple story arcs to accomplish a building process of varying depths as you do not want all of your money feuds running out at the same time. You need to put gas on some fires and let others cool before you fan them again. It takes long term big planning to do all of these things while modifying the process as you go.

    A year long build set in stone for things doesn't work at all but only a fucking idiot would think that is what I'm ever talking about. Three months is about all you really need at max. That can utilize the BIG FOUR PPVs per year as well. use all four big ones to highlight your major stars and use the rest to build to those big event and to highlight your other stars in the making. Does Roman Reigns need to win the opening match at Mania to matter? Only a fool would think so. He can be a big winner on a secondary PPV as well and look great while not being outshined all over the fucking place on the biggest card of all time.

    Constant Instant Gratification is a fucking loser in the entertainment biz. If Rick kills Shane in the 2nd episode of The Walking Dead it doesn't have the pay off. Yes decent example using a shitty show but it's an easy one everyone should already know. You need to build the drama. Build the interest. Build the fire so when it blows up you have as many people invested in your hero as you can. AMBROSE TURNS ON REIGNS ON RAW! FEUD ENDED ON SMACKDOWN! sounds great to some fucking dummies out there I'm sure but it's a waste. Draw it out. Let people who missed last week care about next week. You just have to give people a reason to watch. you have to give people a reason to buy a ticket. It isn't fucking rocket science. Good storytelling is timeless.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayer View Post
    That's why CM Punk is a wrestler and not a booker.
    Guys like Punk, like Ambrose get the fucking business. It's an old school mentality. While useless nobodies like THE MIZ were on reality tv shows trying to make their dreams come true, real independent wrestlers were touring the world, making a living as a professional wrestler, perfecting their craft. You don't have to hold the book full time to understand some of the most basic principles of this art form.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Repperton View Post
    A year long build set in stone for things doesn't work at all but only a fucking idiot would think that is what I'm ever talking about.
    If you're going to insist on spending so much time behind a keyboard, perhaps you should find it within yourself to communicate in a way that makes you understood.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayer View Post
    That's why CM Punk is a wrestler and not a booker.

    That's easy for Punk to say since it appeals to the fans but Coco's right, it's just not feasible to do anymore. At least 30 things will change between now and next year, so there really isn't any point in booking a year in advance unless it's one match ala Rock/Punk or Rock/Cena,
    That's why CM Punk is a wrestler and not a booker.
    That's a pretty loaded statement. Bookers throughout history have also been wrestlers whether it was widely known at the time or not. And there were guys who did great at it and others who sucked. To say "That's why CM Punk is a wrestler and not a booker" though is narrow minded ... considering its not like there is a big difference.

    And I wouldn't mind a little more long term booking , I get why they don't do it but to at least have a shadow of an idea outlined in pencil months ahead of time would be a start. It would be ideal if they wouldn't telegraph it or blatantly tell you whats going to happen though (Cena/Rock). I also don't think the "times have changed and too much can happen" argument is a little weak. As if there weren't obstacles or injuries in every single promotion throughout history.
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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Essential? No. I don't believe that to be true. I believe it's a tool at the disposal of creative people, but I don't believe it's essential.
    A tool that more often than not, yields far better results than car crash booking, or booking on the fly. The proof is in the pudding - Hogan/Savage, Hogan/Andre, nWo/Sting, Austin/McMahon, Undertaker/Kane. All of these feuds, plus a ton more, are hailed as some of the greatest in the history of pro wrestling because they were built upon a very simple foundation of long term booking, where the positives far outweigh the negatives.

    I keep hearing that the typical WWE viewer no longer has the patience for long term booking, or at least that is what Russo would have you believe. I think that's a crock of shit - the average viewer just needs to be retrained in their way of thinking. It isn't 1989 anymore, that much is true - but it isn't 1999 either. Long term booking is the best way to go in my opinion. Always has been, always will be. Stop-start booking which WWE is notorious for does far more harm than I think the company realises in the eyes of its fans.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Moxley had the best shoot on smarks I seen for his CZW saw spot.



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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by WP View Post
    A tool that more often than not, yields far better results than car crash booking, or booking on the fly. The proof is in the pudding - Hogan/Savage, Hogan/Andre, nWo/Sting, Austin/McMahon, Undertaker/Kane. All of these feuds, plus a ton more, are hailed as some of the greatest in the history of pro wrestling because they were built upon a very simple foundation of long term booking, where the positives far outweigh the negatives.

    I keep hearing that the typical WWE viewer no longer has the patience for long term booking, or at least that is what Russo would have you believe. I think that's a crock of shit - the average viewer just needs to be retrained in their way of thinking. It isn't 1989 anymore, that much is true - but it isn't 1999 either. Long term booking is the best way to go in my opinion. Always has been, always will be. Stop-start booking which WWE is notorious for does far more harm than I think the company realises in the eyes of its fans.
    I'm starting to get the feeling that if wrestling fans can't see something coming miles away, they just aren't satisfied.

    What a boring perspective you must all see entertainment from.

  14. #14
    You do you Scotty P Leper Messiah's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    Don't people realise that every time Cena does get time off, WWE goes into some sort of mess that leads to his comeback in like 2 weeks?

    I love the Cena character as it is, which is just himself. Which is great.
    Jim Cornette has said before that a company a lot of times, finds something with a wrestler when they let them be themselves. It worked with Austin and Rock. WWE finally found success with Punk when they let him be himself. Makes sense Cena is successful.

    Anyhoo, while live in the age of instant gratification, you can still do long term booking. ECW proved that with Raven-Dreamer. Both were rvals, and while they'd occasionally feud with other people they'd still work into the rivalry, building the storyline. That's a way you can do it and not lose interest.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leper Messiah View Post
    Jim Cornette has said before that a company a lot of times, finds something with a wrestler when they let them be themselves. It worked with Austin and Rock. WWE finally found success with Punk when they let him be himself. Makes sense Cena is successful.
    And then there's the Undertaker.

    Anyhoo, while live in the age of instant gratification, you can still do long term booking. ECW proved that with Raven-Dreamer. Both were rvals, and while they'd occasionally feud with other people they'd still work into the rivalry, building the storyline. That's a way you can do it and not lose interest.
    Moving onto other feuds during the rivalry would be chastised today as a "lack of focus," or some similarily pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    Don't people realise that every time Cena does get time off, WWE goes into some sort of mess that leads to his comeback in like 2 weeks?

    I love the Cena character as it is, which is just himself. Which is great.
    So, you're saying WWE Creative can't do anything and the company can't function without him. You're saying that WWE isn't very good at doing things that aren't initiated by or revolve around John Cena BECAUSE CENA.

    He's a crutch.
    The IWC will never be happy unless Daniel Bryan wins both world titles, makes Batista tap out and makes HHH look like a total bitch in the process.
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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I'm starting to get the feeling that if wrestling fans can't see something coming miles away, they just aren't satisfied.

    What a boring perspective you must all see entertainment from.
    Who said I'm not satisfied with the product? Sure, I long for the days when WWE actually gave us long story arcs that were engaging, held interest and most importantly, got talent over and drew money.

    But don't just presume that because I think the product could be better booking wise that I'm not satisfied. You haven't the faintest of ideas what my outlook on professional wrestling is beyond what I feel makes a good form of booking. What you deem boring, I deem logical. My suggestion is if you have a preference for short term booking and car crash television style product, then the WWE Network should be a God send for you, seeing as you can then revisit the Attitude Era whenever you desire.

    Or maybe I'm just presuming too much. Who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT
    "Will is so British, I don't even believe he is British. He just fits the stereotype so well, it's ridiculous."

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by WP View Post
    Who said I'm not satisfied with the product? Sure, I long for the days when WWE actually gave us long story arcs that were engaging, held interest and most importantly, got talent over and drew money.
    I'd venture to say WWE still does those things.

  19. #19

    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I'd venture to say WWE still does those things.
    Oh absolutely - but I'd also venture to say with far less frequency than they have in the past. Don't get me wrong, I know we're not in a boom period anymore so it's not totally comparable, but I feel there are numerous aspects of their booking that if they took a page (or heck, entire chapters) from their efforts in the past, they'd be in a much better position. Just my take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT
    "Will is so British, I don't even believe he is British. He just fits the stereotype so well, it's ridiculous."

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by WP View Post
    Oh absolutely - but I'd also venture to say with far less frequency than they have in the past. Don't get me wrong, I know we're not in a boom period anymore so it's not totally comparable, but I feel there are numerous aspects of their booking that if they took a page (or heck, entire chapters) from their efforts in the past, they'd be in a much better position. Just my take.
    Rose-coloured glasses - check.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    And then there's the Undertaker.
    That can work if the right guy is playing the role. Mark Calloway played it well, another guy, maybe not.

    Even then though, as someone on this site once pointed out, gimmick sounds cheesy when you look at it. I mean, this zombie like guy, that's gets his strength from this urn, whose keeper use it to control him. Sadly a gimmick like that would be looked at too cheesy by the IWC now-a-days.

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leper Messiah View Post
    Sadly a gimmick like that would be looked at too cheesy by the IWC now-a-days.

  23. #23

    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Rose-coloured glasses - check.
    There you go presuming again Coco. It's a terrible flaw of yours.

    I actually strongly dislike the Attitude Era, New Generation was far too cartoony and whilst I love the Golden Era of the 80's, the in ring product was pretty lackuster. The WWE in it's current state as far as talent wise and brand awarness, is the strongest it's ever been. Plus, they have a fantastic developmental system.

    I just think the booking could be better. And seeing as their booking of numerous major storylines in years gone by have (and I stress so you don't nitpick, IN MY OPINION) been superior from the premise, execution and that all important pay off, it goes without saying that I think they could learn from past successes.

    Rose coloured glasses... Maybe once upon a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT
    "Will is so British, I don't even believe he is British. He just fits the stereotype so well, it's ridiculous."

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    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    I loathe the Attitude Era for the most part.

    So we can rest comfortably tonight knowing we're both wildly presumptuous.

  25. #25

    Default Re: It's 2014, not 1989 - Get with the program!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I loathe the Attitude Era for the most part.

    So we can rest comfortably tonight knowing we're both wildly presumptuous.
    I can totally live with that.

    Good shooting the shit with ya. It's not often I venture up to this neck of the woods. May do so more often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT
    "Will is so British, I don't even believe he is British. He just fits the stereotype so well, it's ridiculous."

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