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Thread: General MMA Discussion Thread

  1. #26
    They still play defense? The Real LT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theend View Post
    RIP Ken Norton. I met the man and he was in great spirits and charming. We traded punches from the chair he was nearly confined to and laughed. He signed my book and I moved through the line.
    Absolutely. In his prime he also gave Ali more fits that practically anyone else as a fighter.

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    yep and before he fought Ali 90% of the people he fought weren't worthy of a wiki page. I did Norton, great dude and a good book but boy do people get revisionist history over that division in that era.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theend View Post
    yep and before he fought Ali 90% of the people he fought weren't worthy of a wiki page. I did Norton, great dude and a good book but boy do people get revisionist history over that division in that era.
    It wasn't as stacked as claimed. But then again when was it ever really stacked?

    It's considered such a bad ass era because Ali was in the center of it. That's why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afterglow View Post
    It wasn't as stacked as claimed. But then again when was it ever really stacked?

    It's considered such a bad ass era because Ali was in the center of it. That's why.
    I don't know if the HW div was ever really that good.
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  5. #30
    afterglow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theend View Post
    I don't know if the HW div was ever really that good.
    Exactly.

    It's usually a couple of halfway decent guys skill wise, and bunch of slow plodders that happen to hit hard because they're big.

  6. #31
    They still play defense? The Real LT's Avatar

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    Wasn't just Ali though. Foreman and Frazier were there as well.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Real LT View Post
    Wasn't just Ali though. Foreman and Frazier were there as well.
    That in and of itself does not make the division great tho.

  8. #33
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    The UFC cut Yushin Okami. Who is 3 and 1 in his last 4 fights. He's also still ranked in the top 10.

    That ain't right.

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    Bisping is out 4 to 6 months and Lyoto Machida has replaced him against Mark Munoz.

    Machida/Munoz should be better than Machida/Kennedy atleast.


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  10. #35
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    Munoz is gonna get KO'ed badly.

  11. #36
    Still an Edgehead!!! Dose's Avatar

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    The latest boxing controversy is regarding Julio Cesar Chavez Junior.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/boxing-...054149436.html


    Judging 'travesty' gifts Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. a controversial decision win over Bryan Vera

    Kevin Iole
    Kevin Iole 3 hours ago Yahoo Sports

    View gallery
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    Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. celebrates in the ring after his win. (AP)

    CARSON, Calif. – Two weeks after C.J. Ross sent shockwaves through the boxing world with an incomprehensible scorecard, the judges were at it again.

    Ross' even scorecard in the Floyd Mayweather bout on Sept. 14 in Las Vegas caused controversy but ultimately didn't factor into the decision. On Saturday, though, the judging impacted the outcome in a negative way.

    Gwen Adair (98-92), Carla Caiz (97-93) and Dr. Lou Moret (96-94) unanimously called a fight for Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. against Bryan Vera, raising boos from the pro-Chavez crowd of 5,206 at the StubHub Center and incensing the Vera camp.

    Yahoo Sports scored it 96-94 for Vera, who threw nearly twice as many punches as Chavez and landed 51 more over the course of the 10-round fight.


    "The one judge had it 98-92, which basically means that Bryan Vera wasn't even in the fight and they didn't give him credit for a thing he did," Vera promoter Artie Pelullo said. "They gave him no credit for the quality of the fight that he had. It's like he didn't exist. It's unbelievable. I told the commissioner [Andy Foster, of the California State Athletic Commission], 'A judge in Nevada lost her job for doing this kind of thing.' 98-92? 97-93? What are you watching?"

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    Brian Vera and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. trade blows during their fight. (AP)
    Chavez, whose face was marked up and whose right hand was badly swollen after the fight, complained that Vera fought a dirty fight. He said Vera was head-butting him constantly and hitting him with low blows.

    Chavez, who said he thought he broke his right hand, clearly landed the harder punches in the fight and staggered Vera late in the eighth round along the ropes during a frenetic exchange.

    "I was very close to knocking him out three times in the fight," Chavez Jr. said. "One of the rounds, he was really hurt and it should have been a 10-8 round."

    The crowd was overwhelmingly in favor of Chavez, roaring loudly whenever he even came close to connecting with a punch. But when the decision was announced, the crowd booed loudly and chanted obscenities.

    Ronnie Shields, Vera's normally even-tempered trainer, raced from the ring after the bout. He said, "I've seen some bad [decisions], and that one is right up there. Every one of these [expletive] judges needs to [expletive] retire."

    Shields said Vera executed his gameplan perfectly and clearly outworked Chavez. He said he thought Vera just had to make sure he wasn't knocked out in the final round.

    When he heard the scores, he was in disbelief.

    "Come on, man!" Shields said. "Bryan won at least seven rounds. I think you can see eight rounds for him, but at least seven. This is [expletive]. Bryan fought a heavyweight in there tonight. Look how big this guy was and Bryan did a great job."

    Chavez weighed 172.4 at Friday's weigh-in and appeared close to 190 pounds by the time the fight started. He declined HBO's request to be weighed in the locker room before the bout, as most fighters routinely do.

    Chavez used a lot of lateral movement, and a sharp left hook. His weight advantage didn't seem to bother Vera, who steadily moved forward despite Chavez's massive edge in size.

    Vera wasn't able to hurt Chavez, but he was able to consistently hit him with clean shots.

    "This was the best performance of my career," Vera said. "The weight was never an issue. The gameplan was exactly what we did. I had to take some of the macho-ness out and I was never hurt during the fight."

    But Chavez was the bigger star with the far bigger name and, sadly, that determines the outcome more than what goes on in the ring in fights these days.

    View gallery
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    Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. complains to referee Lou Moret after his fight. (AP)
    The judges' scorecards were all over the map and weren't nearly in agreement. There were only three rounds – the fifth, sixth and seventh – that all three judges scored the same.

    But beyond that, it was a mess. Adair gave Chavez the first seven rounds, while Caiz went the other way and gave the first four to Vera.

    There was little consistency among them and they seemed to overlook Vera's higher work rate and connected punches.

    Julio Cesar Chavez Sr., the Hall of Famer who trained his son for the first time, scoffed when asked if he thought the decision was correct.

    "I know about boxing and have been in this sport all of my life," Chavez Sr. said. "Who connected the best punches? When Bryan Vera did anything against Julio, it was because he was hitting him low and using his head. That's all he did."

    Pelullo said Vera will get a rematch on HBO, but that was of little consolation. He lost a fight that most people who saw it at the StubHub Center felt he clearly won, and he won't go into the next match coming off a career-defining win.

    That angered Pelullo, who said he wouldn't have been nearly as upset had Chavez escaped with a close decision.

    "You know me and I don't get crazy, but that was a travesty," Pelullo said. "He won that fight. If he lost the fight by one point, OK. I don't agree, but OK. But he didn't lose the fight by one point. According to them, he wasn't even in the fight.

    "It's bizarre. … Whether you think we won the fight or not, it was not 98-92. It was not 97-93. It's a travesty. The people here were fans, real fans, and they know what they saw. They don't necessarily like Bryan Vera, but they liked what he did. When they heard the decision, they knew it was baloney, too."

    The judges are increasingly becoming the story, much more than the fighters. And when that happens, something is wrong.

    On Saturday at the StubHub Center, something was very wrong.
    What is worse is this doesn't really mention that Julio didn't even make the weight cut and settled with Vera privately to come in at a higher weight than previously agreed to.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/boxing...4390--box.html

    Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. finally finds a weight that he can make, tips scales at 172.4 for fight with Bryan Vera

    Kevin Iole September 27, 2013 6:25 PM Boxing

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    .

    Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. (L) weighed 172.4; Bryan Vera weighed 171.2 (Chris Farina/Top Rank)

    Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. weighed in at 172.4 pounds on Friday at the Biltmore Hotel in downtown Los Angeles, clearing the way for his bout Saturday in Carson, Calif., against Bryan Vera.

    Vera weighed in at 171.2 pounds.

    When the bout was signed in the summer, it was to be contested at 163 pounds on Sept. 7. But Chavez was cut in training -- at least that was the official word on the postponement, though his weight issues make one wonder -- and when it was rescheduled, the weight was boosted to 168 pounds.

    Earlier this week, though, Chavez informed promoters that he could not make 168. After negotiations between the fighter camps, an agreement was reached to set the total at 173 pounds. Chavez had to pay Vera an undisclosed amount of money to get the contract moved from 168 to 173. But Vera had little choice, because if he declined, he wouldn't have been paid.

    View gallery
    .

    Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. (L) and Bryan Vera face off after their weigh-in (Chris Farina/Top Rank)
    Chavez barely made the number even with all the increases, and he'll likely add on a significant amount of weight by fight time. There is no limit on what he can weigh on Saturday.

    Chavez spent much of the morning on Friday in the sauna at the Biltmore. A spokesman for Top Rank, which is promoting the fight, said he was in the sauna "for hours." However, Chavez did not complain about feeling badly at the weigh-in.

    "I feel very strong right now," he said. "I made some sacrifices during the week [and] I lost about five pounds."

    He hasn't fought since losing his WBC middleweight title to Sergio Martinez on Sept. 15, 2012. He was suspended after the fight for having tested positive for marijuana.

    He said that contrary to reports, he did put in the effort.

    "When I got into Los Angeles, I knew I could not make the weight limit, so I asked my promoter if he could arrange for a different weight," Chavez said. "I did train hard to be ready, but remember, I have not fought in a year. I will do the best I can on Saturday night. These fights like [this] against Vera with no title on the line are the most dangerous for me, because I have everything to lose.

    "Vera has nothing to lose, really. Not like me."

    When Vera, a natural middleweight, arrived in Los Angeles on Monday, he weighed just over 173 pounds.

    "I wasn't really concerned with what was going on with him," Vera said of Chavez's weight issues. "I was more concerned with myself that I would be able to eat. I worked out hard the last three or four days."

    Chavez manager Billy Keane said the fighter didn't intentionally miss weight, but it getting bigger. Though Chavez said he wants a middleweight title shot, that may no longer be possible because it seems he can no longer make the weight.

    "[Julio] trained hard for this fight," Keane said. "It's that his body is different. Yes, he struggles with his weight. We have to re-examine what division he will be in the future.

    "Vera is a difficult, awkward opponent and he can make you look bad."

    The bout will be televised on HBO at 10:15 p.m. ET. It will open with a light heavyweight title fight from Montreal between Adonis Stevenson and Tavoris Cloud.
    No one in my house of Latinos bothered watching because we know the guy is getting by on his name and doesn't put in the effort he should be. So in fairness... I can't say he was gifted the fight... I can say it doesn't sound good when you can agree to make weight but then you "can't" make it so you set up another weight... and then change that one because you "couldn't" make it either...
    Last edited by Dose; 09-29-2013 at 05:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    0 days since a Cena fight. C'mon guys we need to at least get it up to two.
    http://forums.prowrestling.com/showthread.php?t=123457 THE KID VS DOSE MATCH IS ON!!!!

  12. #37
    They still play defense? The Real LT's Avatar

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    Chavez Jr is a joke. He's been getting by on his daddy's name for practically his entire career.

  13. #38
    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Man, I've been on a boxing kick lately and noticed that there are a TON of great classic fights on Youtube right now. If you haven't already, you really need to look up the series between Sugar Ray, Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, and Marvin Haggler from the 80's. Some of my favorite fights ever:





    MMA is where my heart will always be, but I feel like even the all time greatest MMA fights pale in comparison to the all time great boxing matches.

  14. #39
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    The best has yet to come on both sides I hope
    Last edited by Theend; 09-29-2013 at 10:48 AM.
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    I think the best is yet to come for MMA for sure. The sport is still in it's infancy really. It has evolved at the speed of light since UFC 1, and it really never stopped. Even to this day if you watch some of the fighters on the amateur level and compare it to some of the fighters on the pro level 5 years ago, the difference is night and day. I've seen some ammys recently that would have smoked the average pro fighter 5 years ago when I was fighting. MMA in the US is only 20 years old. I think the best is yet to come for sure without a doubt. Boxing on the other hand I'm not so sure. There were a lot of factors involved in some of those classic fights, factors that you just don't see materialize in today's era.

    Love that Duran vs Leonard fight. Every fight tells a story. This one tells the story of how Duran smothered Leonard, cut his footwork off, and outright dragged him into a brawl to keep him from doing what he does best. Brilliant strategy masterfully executed. Epic fight.

    Since we're talking about guys that gave Ali hell, might as well bring up this guy:



    What a hammer of a left hook. Talk about saved by the bell. Always read about this fight, but never got to see it until this morning. I think the two Cooper fights made Ali a better fighter.
    Last edited by ShinobiMusashi; 09-29-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  16. #41
    They still play defense? The Real LT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theend View Post
    The best has yet to come on both sides I hope
    MMA is in it's infancy so it still has room to grow.

    Boxing should be ok as well, although the heavyweight division isn't looking so good, as most of it's best prospective athletes are gravitating toward other sports, especially in America. Currently the only two good heavyweights are the Klitchsko brothers and they won't fight each other for obvious reasons.

  17. #42
    Theend Is Here Theend's Avatar

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    I am the lone American Klitschko fan.

    I would argue with most that we haven't seen that much of an evolution in MMA in quite a while. Tito Ortiz vs Frank Shamrock showed about 95% of the skills we see today. It only looks evolved next to boxing. Really looking at things like gymnastics, skateboarding, snowborarding etc and even the rule changes and different styles of play in football and baseball have forced a more radical evolution than MMA has taken since randy couture vs vitor belfort UFC 15 and Tito Ortiz vs Frank Shamrock UFC 22.

    The 4 mentioned would still be able to tangle with the top 20 today, in their current shape and not learning anymore since the year 2000. I can see what you are saying about the young guns. Their is a lot of well rounded, highly skilled people getting no tv love and that is definitely the rule and not the exception. But I holding it to a high pedestal in comparing it to something like the evolution of big air motocross or vert skateboarding.

    I hope the best is yet to come in boxing only because boxing is eternal and with eternal time we will have an infinity of boxers to come. Sort of like NFL quarterbacks. We may have seen some awesome ones but we have another century in front of us.
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    I must be the lone Canadian Klitschko fan.



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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinobiMusashi View Post
    Love that Duran vs Leonard fight. Every fight tells a story. This one tells the story of how Duran smothered Leonard, cut his footwork off, and outright dragged him into a brawl to keep him from doing what he does best. Brilliant strategy masterfully executed. Epic fight.
    Love to see someone say that, and not the revisionist history put out by SRL and his fans that he chose to fight that way.

    Duran did not allow Ray Leonard to fight any other way than how he did that night.

  20. #45
    Senior Member SensesFailed's Avatar

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    http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/0...r-yushin-okami

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  21. #46
    Still an Edgehead!!! Dose's Avatar

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    Yeah, it all comes down to getting a not always exciting but mostly successful winning fighter out of the way, their own rankings be damned. Looks like Lyoto better not lose again...

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ufc-cut...0943--mma.html

    UFC Cuts Okami, Discredits Own Ranking System

    Yahoo Contributor Network
    Joe Napoli 18 hours ago

    COMMENTA
    RY | The UFC implemented a ranking system for its weight divisions in Jan. 2013, but that hasn't stopped the company from releasing fighters who were ranked highly in its own system. Yushin Okami became the second mixed martial artist, the first being Jon Fitch, to lose his job with the UFC despite being considered one of the company's ten best fighters in his weight class.

    There are some important similarities between Fitch and Okami at the time of their releases. Both had a grinding style that many casual fans didn't appreciate; neither was a big draw; they each won fights at a high percentage rate; they had fallen to the champion of their weight class, and were unlikely to ever battle for the belt again.

    Okami, a longtime middleweight standout, went 13-5 in his UFC run, and 3-1 in his last four fights with the company. UFC president Dana White explained the release as necessary due to a limited roster, and Okami's lack of a signature win.

    The UFC middleweight division has never been viewed as particularly stacked, and the company's desire to part with a top ten fighter seems questionable for a number of reasons. This release directly contradicts its own ranking system, and is in opposition to the UFC gathering all of the best fighters in the world in one organization.

    The reality is Okami, as well as Fitch, were not valuable enough to put in feature spots, where they would have the opportunity to eliminate potential title contenders. Their contracts were also probably a lot higher than other fighters who had stronger drawing power. Business is business, but MMA is also a sport.

    No legitimate professional sports league would release top talent because they weren't marketable. This is essentially what the UFC did. It wasn't a cost cutting measure necessary like when an NFL veteran is cut by a cash strapped team. The move eliminated one of the company's better fighters pretty much because he wasn't best for business, with no regard for what was best for the sport. The UFC's own ranking system tells its fans that he deserves to be with the company.

    The UFC has increasingly been blurring the line between sport and entertainment, Jon Jones vs. Chael Sonnen being the biggest recent example. Moves like this make one question why they even have a ranking system if they're not going to adhere to it when making decisions. There's a line between sports and entertainment, and the UFC sent a message with this move that they're willing to cross it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    0 days since a Cena fight. C'mon guys we need to at least get it up to two.
    http://forums.prowrestling.com/showthread.php?t=123457 THE KID VS DOSE MATCH IS ON!!!!

  22. #47
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    In irony some so called legitimate sports will sign people seemingly not on merit but on their ability to get people to sit down and watch for a while. Danica, Travis and others in NASCAR, Tebow, Michael Jordan in baseball, David Beckham's late career, Henry Thierry, NFL signing Vince Papale, etc. I am sure if we think about it we can think of a ton of times where attractions were signed as athletes and discredited leagues so called legit standards.
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    Senior Member SensesFailed's Avatar

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    I wouldn't say Pastrana is solely based on his ability to draw, it might be a factor, but I think unlike some of the other examples you gave, he does have a much better ability to actually do well in the sport he is in.
    Now you're on the field callin' me an asshole, 'Cause I roped up your body like a lasso

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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theend View Post
    In irony some so called legitimate sports will sign people seemingly not on merit but on their ability to get people to sit down and watch for a while. Danica, Travis and others in NASCAR, Tebow, Michael Jordan in baseball, David Beckham's late career, Henry Thierry, NFL signing Vince Papale, etc. I am sure if we think about it we can think of a ton of times where attractions were signed as athletes and discredited leagues so called legit standards.
    Thierry Henry/Beckham couldn't play in Europe, but were still more talented than most in MLS. Vince Papale...he played 3 seasons...he made it on merit...he wasn't a name. Danica and Travis both worked their ways through the NASCAR minor leagues. Danica drove Indy Car for years and Travis is still only in the Nationwide part of NASCAR. Your examples outside of Jordan playing baseball is flawed. At least Tebow played football as his first sport, he is a Heisman winner...not a pro QB, but he made it on merit.

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    2003-2015 Brad's Avatar

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    I don't think I've ever heard of a main event as bad as Kennedy/Natal which is what we get now that Bisping was injured and Machida was moved to the Munoz fight. That is just a terrible main event.


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