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Thread: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfabe?

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    Believe in the Shield. Lilslimshady's Avatar
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    Default What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfabe?

    I know this has been a conversation beaten into the ground, but I wanted to ask it again but also in a fresh way. As smart, in the know guys of the wrestling biz here on PW, there's this weird thing that goes on where there is an element of kayfabe that we enjoy, but only to an extent. At least for me, I like knowing the inner workings of the business. I know that I don't know 90 percent of what guys like Punk, Cena, Orton, Kane, Henry, Bryan, Big Show, Jericho, HHH, Taker, Rock, etc know. But, I do know that I know a decent amount about the business. I do hate this notion by wrestlers that smart marks don't know shit. I find that entirely insulting and untrue. It's impossible to fully restore kayfabe, and that's fine. It's not the 80's or even the 90's anymore where that blurry line is there. Only on occasion with Punk's infamous promo maybe. But Now, there's dirtsheets which are sometimes right and wrong, but they are right a lot of the times. There are wrestlers spilling the beans to close friends of theirs in the media and it gets out. Guys like Heyman and Jericho are notorious for taking reporters behind the scenes and talking to guys like Meltzer about the ongoings. Disgruntled under-card talent. I'll give an example of what I'm talking about. A long time ago and some of you may remember, I hosted a wrestling and rock n roll radio show. This was 2003-2004, and I'm this 14 year old kid. As a 14 year old kid wet behind the ears and not knowing much of anything, except for the wrestling lexicon and as a mark since 1997, I managed to get in touch through email and through different writers on dirtsheet sites, with lower card wrestlers in ROH and TNA. I never interviewed anybody in WWE, mind you. I'm not a Sam Roberts or Rosenberg, but I got guys like Jerelle Clark, Shark Boy, Trent Acid, etc on my show.

    They would talk about their love for wrestling, what they had going on, and then proceed to spill the beans on future angles and shit like that to this 14 year old kid and my other colleague. So If I could get under-card guys in other companies, of course Meltzer, Roberts, Rosenberg can secure solid relationships with top guys in the industry. I say all of that to say that I wish kayfabe wasn't broken to that extent of knowing every last detail about the finish of an angle that just started. And if you noticed, you can tells the guys that don't mind spilling and you can tell the guys that are old school and don't like getting into it and they change the conversation with the wrestling lexicon flows out of some fans mouth. On the protecting the business side, I see guys like Kane, Henry, HHH, Taker, Cena. Guys like that. Punk is somewhere in the middle as we have all heard him go off about ripping up scripts and hating Miz being in the main event, etc. But, also at times, he shys away from it and hates non-wrestlers using the wrestling lexicon in his mind out of context. But, then you get the guys that spill and spill: Orton, Big Show, Jericho, etc.

    I do like learning from guys like Jericho or the occasional Punk thing or Big Show spouting off on how young talent can improve. A lot of what we know is in large part because of reading Jericho's books or watching interviews of guys. Or whatever. Dirtsheets. I don't mind the fact that we have a decent amount of knowledge available to us at a whim through the internet. But, we also know very little compared to the wrestlers, writers, referrees, announcers, etc. So back to my original question: Do you like guys that protect the business? Guys that don't use the words heel, babyface, work, heat, going home in a match, shoot, dip, etc with interviewers? Guys that don't talk about spots called in matches, Vince being in gorilla after the match to give you thumbs up or down, the fact that wrestlers handshake after their match in gorilla as per wrestling protocol? Or do you like when a Jericho or Big Show talk about how storylines play out, even past storylines or freely using the lexicon in front of the interviewer allowing them to be a part of the exclusive wrestling club? I'm somewhere in the middle. I do like that kayfabe isn't like how it used to be. I like knowing some shit, alright. I appreciate Big Show and Orton and Jericho and Punk and Heyman providing inside shoot stuff. But, I also like the fact that Henry, Kane, HHH, Taker, Cena, etc really protect the business. I see it both ways. What about you guys?

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    Banned Justin Valuable's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    I'm with you. I'm right in the middle. I like knowing some stuff that is going on, however I wish some things were kept protected. The wrestlers that break kayfabe have clearly made the fans smarter and more knowledgeable about the business. It's amazing now-a-days seeing fans use terms like "ring psychology" yet years ago probably had no clue what it was. But those terms are used because of wrestlers that have educated the fans about the nuances of the business. CM Punk is a great example of a guy with a character/persona that is based on breaking kayfabe. It's cool that there's a guy able to say things that aren't suppose to be said, which is why he so beloved by fans. It makes me wonder if someone like CM Punk would have been able to make it in the business in the 80s. Those guys were all about protecting the business, and anyone that didn't adhere to that probably was dealt with accordingly. Times have clearly changed, but that was bound to happen with the evolution of technology as fans have more access to the ins/outs of the business as well as communicated with each other.

    At this point I'm always amazed whenever WWE to produce something without it being spoiled.

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    An AJPW Guy Emperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    I'd prefer it more if wrestlers protected the business. My only reason for saying that is because I do enjoy seeing wrestlers do interviews in character even if it isn't on official WWE programming. However, I don't have anything against wrestlers revealing "industry secrets" in interviews, or using the wrestling lingo.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    I'm not sure either, I guess I'm kinda' in the middle also. I'm a suscriber to a UK Wrestling Magazine and I love reading the insides of the business. I bought a different wrestling magazine that stayed in kayfabe (can't remember what it was called), and I found it rubbish and boring to read. It didn't appeal to me what so ever. However, I'm not a big fan of reading how certain feuds are going to play out, etc. It leads to the sense of shock not being there which isn't as great viewing. So, yeah I fall in the middle category also.
    Thanks too Fresh Prince

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    Great insight so far, guys. But, yeah you look at the old school guys and for the most part they just don't talk about inside stuff. You got exceptions like Big Show and CM Punk and Chris Jericho. But, I look at the laundry list of guys like Kane, Henry, HHH, Taker, Cena who just don't go there. Ric Flair only went there with RF Video because he was broke. Hogan gives some inside shoot stuff, but knows when to protect the business. But yeah the middle category is beautiful. You know some stuff, but you aren't so inside smarky pants that you can't enjoy the product. Diehard smarks can't enjoy wrestling because all they do is complain and complain and never enjoy the good out of the product. You have to let storylines play out. Punk always talks about how smarks forget that after a bad edition of Raw, there will be a Raw next week and that smarks are just too impatient. So true.

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    OBEY THE NARRATIVE Djm's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    The wrestling business will look at fans with the same amount of disdain one way or the other. If there are more fans that are savvy to the wrestling business, it's a problem that we're not enjoying it and just enjoying the show. On the other hand, we're dumb marks who are basically looked at like 3rd grade special ed students.

    If the business and the talent can't figure out how to keep us captivated, that's not because of those of us that like to post on wrestling forums or read PWInsider or the Observer.

    And the thing that I don't get is that there are fans who buy into it themselves! Fans that deride THEMSELVES for....being passionate for wrestling! How dare we post on a forum! How dare we read a wikipedia article! How dare we want to know what's going to happen next and wanting to know as much about this genre as we can!

    My opinion: Say or do whatever you want, as long as you know what you're saying.

    And stop trying to make everything you write or say on YouTube sound like a goddamn wrestling promo and speak like a normal human being.

    YOU WILL COMPLY.

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    Believe in the Shield. Lilslimshady's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    Quote Originally Posted by Djm View Post
    The wrestling business will look at fans with the same amount of disdain one way or the other. If there are more fans that are savvy to the wrestling business, it's a problem that we're not enjoying it and just enjoying the show. On the other hand, we're dumb marks who are basically looked at like 3rd grade special ed students.

    If the business and the talent can't figure out how to keep us captivated, that's not because of those of us that like to post on wrestling forums or read PWInsider or the Observer.

    And the thing that I don't get is that there are fans who buy into it themselves! Fans that deride THEMSELVES for....being passionate for wrestling! How dare we post on a forum! How dare we read a wikipedia article! How dare we want to know what's going to happen next and wanting to know as much about this genre as we can!

    My opinion: Say or do whatever you want, as long as you know what you're saying.

    And stop trying to make everything you write or say on YouTube sound like a goddamn wrestling promo and speak like a normal human being.
    Hahaha, I love that. I too get upset when wrestlers hold fans in disdain like we don't know shit. Of course, we don't know as much as they do, but I just hate when the wrestlers act like we're fucking morons who don't understand shit. Like even Punk...I love him to death, but come on he can get bitter as fuck. I heard the interview he did with Rosenberg where he got pissed at a writer for using the word " heat." It's just some exclusive elitist club and I don't fucking get it. I agree with you DJM that you should know what you are talking about before spouting off. Some smarks know what they are talking about. Some smarks have no fucking clue and Meltzer is their god and they believe every dirtsheet and think because they know some Indy guys, that they are somehow in the complete know of the business. Sure, most smarks don't like Cena, but the intelligent smarks recognize that Cena knows more wrestling inside stuff than they ever will. It's the smark that thinks that they know more than John Cena or Triple H that fucking irks me. I happen to dig Cena to a degree, but you guys see my point.

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    History Beckons Macho Man MachoMark's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    There is no such thing as protecting the business anymore. Nobody thinks its real..Nobody..


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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    It really depends how they are doing it. I only care if they talk in a way that makes wrestling look bad, not fake. It is fake, but don't hold the belt and then talk shit about it being just a prop you got in a storyline.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    To me it's a mixture of 2 different thought processes. I don't have a 6 year mindset anymore but I don't feel the need to read dirtsheets or spoilers at all.





    Thanks Bender

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts on wrestlers protecting the business vs. maintaining kayfa

    I'd prefer keeping kayfabe on TV at all times and breaking it on anything non-TV/PPV. For instance, there was a really nifty part of the Hardy Boys' first DVD (I think it was) where they talked about their ladder match against Christian and Edge, their favorite spots, and how they decided to set up the match and what they were going for with the finish. That kind of behind the scenes stuff is pretty cool to me; it's like listening to DVD commentary from the writers or something like that and it can be done without getting too insidery.

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