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Thread: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

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    Senior Member Vince Mcmahon's Avatar
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    Default Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I wanted to do this thread before, but I believe now is the perfect time to do it. I want to ask how many out there believe there is a difference between the WWE and WWF way of doing things?

    I believe there is and it has to do with making the PEOPLE HAVE CHOICE in who they believe are heels and faces.

    I think that is the biggest difference between the wwe and wwf and why the company is struggling making stars legitimately have emotional investment with the audiences.

    I ask these questions.

    In The Mega-Powers who was the heel and face in that break up?

    Who was right or wrong in the Austin and Bret Hart feud?

    Why are there no longer commentators who side with the heel and expose the face and vice versa?

    Do you believe the shades of gray was something new in 1996-97 or was there all along?

    Is it better the company makes YOU choose the babyface or the heel by the actions of the wrestlers OR TELL YOU who to cheer and boo?
    Who is the boss? Who made wrestling? Who is sports entertainment?

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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Mcmahon View Post
    Is it better the company makes YOU choose the babyface or the heel by the actions of the wrestlers OR TELL YOU who to cheer and boo?
    Is there a REAL difference between BOTH THINGS?

    The basic idea is that they make character A a FACE and character B a HEEL, then these two CHARACTERS are supposed to ACT accordingly.

    In other WORDS, the COMPANY is already TELLING YOU who to cheer and who to boo, RIGHT?
    Last edited by Nightwolf; 04-02-2013 at 01:55 AM.
    That's all, folks.

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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
    Is there a REAL difference between BOTH THINGS?

    The basic idea is that they make character A a FACE and character B a HEEL, then these two CHARACTERS are supposed to ACT accordingly.

    In other WORDS, the COMPANY is already TELLING YOU who to cheer and who to boo, right?
    NOT ALWAYS and I can show you in the past how.

    For instance the company is TELLING you now to cheer for Cena, but are the crowds totally doing it? However that is WWE of TODAY.

    In the past the company would lay out ANGLES and let YOU choose who to cheer for and follow course accordingly. REALLY look at the questions I asked about The MegaPowers and Austin/Bret feuds which were the two biggest catalysts that led to 1989's monstrous buy-rate for Mania and in 1998 as well with Austin/HBK.

    Look at how the STORIES were TOLD and how the FANS REACTED.
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    SAVAGE was the HEEL, because he overreacted and ATTACKED Hogan!, sure, in hindsight it would seem he was JUSTIFIED, but the ANGLE itself was MADE so THE PEOPLE would CHEER Hogan.

    Hart was MEANT to be the bad guy, because he was being A DOUCHE, while Austin was being COOL and TOUGH, once again, the ANGLE ITSELF was written with that INTENTION.

    You can SAY that the company is TELLING you to cheer for Cena more blatanly with their ANGLES these days? SURELY, but it's not like only the WWE of TODAY does it.

    Also, the WWE of TODAY already had a heel commentator that trashed the faces, it was MICHAEL COLE.
    That's all, folks.

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    Senior Member Vince Mcmahon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Not in hindsight. The wwf use to make judgment calls based off crowd reactions by listening to the market (Royal Rumble 1994 comes to mind between Hart and Luger).

    I ask you HOW was Hogan MADE to be cheered in the angle? The fans just CHOSE to side with Hogan in the scenario and not to believe Savage's belief that Hogan was moving in on Elizabeth. The fans decided to side with Hogan more than it did with Savage(and there were some who did see it Savage's way).

    How was Bret Hart being a douche when HE was the one that was called out by Steve Austin in 1996? Bret Hart was the guy who was ROBBED of the Royal Rumble by Steve Austin.

    The company gave a platform on the tv for fans to react.

    Angles weren't written by the way which is why they were called angles and not storylines.

    BTW, this is just portion of a bigger statement that I'm going to make about today's product and what I think the company might be doing or should do.

    This topic is in terms of the major stars as well and not the undercard stars who are put into feuds to help develop them to reach the main event. I'm talking about stars in angles where their star power or rather close or equal and building from there.
    Last edited by Vince Mcmahon; 04-02-2013 at 02:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Every form of storytelling has a narrative that the author wants to convey.

    But what I don't understand is why is WWE so stringent in regards to their storytelling narrative. They are a weekly television show that is performed not just live or live-to-tape every week, but performed in front of a LIVE AUDIENCE every week. This idea that permeates the wrestling business to never deviate from the plan is something that really leaves me confused.

    If you're really as good as you say you are and we're not all just dumb marks, how hard can it be to tune the story you want to tell to the response that the audience is giving you while still doing what you want?

    Furthermore, to take all of that and throw it out the window, if fans are reacting in the opposite way that you want, why is that OUR fault?

    I'm not proclaiming to know anything on this. That's why I'm asking.
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Djm that is the point I'm making. You can tell the story without FORCING who the hero and villain is and let the audience's perspective of the story decide on who's right and who's wrong. It's different strokes for different folks and for different times. The same story told today might have a different result another time depending on who is in the story. The wwe is getting carried away with this episodic television stuff when it is SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT. It is a different beast and the audience is a different beast from your regular television audience. It is a reason why the business was getting such high ratings and attention to begin with.

    Let us look at some angles of the past and judge it how it went down at the time and how it might be perceived today.

    The Mega-Powers Explode:
    Let us look at Randy Savage the competitor and Randy Savage the persona. When Savage came in 1985 he actually was a threat to Hulk Hogan's title right out the gate. A few months later Savage won the IC title by winning by heeldom. He was seen as someone talented, but a guy who took shortcuts. Savage had heat for his talent and for his persona and how it interacted with the "Lovely" Elizabeth. Savage went on to almost end the career of his biggest challenger Ricky Steamboat by crushing his larynx. Bruno Sammartino and even Jake Roberts ended up getting cheered against Savage because the crowd hated what he did to the beloved Steamboat.

    A funny thing happened though and Randy Savage started to get cheers after WM III. WHY? The traditional good vs. evil narrative was told, but the crowd saw it as Savage being a great IC Champion who put on a valiant title defense which wasn't enough against the talented Ricky Steamboat who had returned from career threatening injury. I ask WHERE does ANY OF THIS make the fans FORCED to cheer Randy Savage post WM III? THE FANS CHOSE to cheer him out his sheer talent and charisma. It could even be argued Randy Savage never lost the IC title fair and square because George Steele help cost him the title.

    Fast forward a few months later to the season premiere of Saturday Night's Main Event when Savage now firmly perched as the #1 contender for the IC title once again faces The Honky Tonk Man(another persona that was HATED for no other reason by the audience for being an Elvis clone as he came into the league as a babyface that the wwf tried to make fans like). Savage's past was forgotten with Hogan as Hogan was the guy who helped Savage counter back to the attacks from Jimmy Hart's stable because Elizabeth asked for it. The Mega-Powers were born.

    Now I ask again when The Mega Powers went down WHY did the people CHOOSE to cheer Hogan? The story and outcome is different when you look at the origins of Savage and Hogan's story. Why did the next year after WM V Hulk Hogan's fate was different? It was that Ultimate Warrior's heat and acceptance as Hogan's equal played a part in the perception that the crowd was split on who to cheer for. What was Ultimate Warrior's past compared to Randy Savage's past when Hogan and Warrior got into a feud? Warrior had no shady past like Savage that was the biggest difference and the perception of Warrior was that of a mad man who walked to his own beat.

    Hogan vs. Savage and Hogan vs. Warrior was the peak of WM in terms of title defenses for Hogan(Andre The Giant was the first REAL test and even that story could be played out differently, but Andre seemed like the turn coat who was jealous and a bully**** along with Ornodrff in 1986 although Orndorff had legit reason with Hogan too, but in that scenario Orndorff's shady past came into play).

    Now look at the way Cena and The Rock has played out since Rock returned in 2011 and there are some similarities of the company following the old rules of business. What was John Cena's persona on Smackdown when he was feuding with the likes of Brock Lesnar and Undertaker(one off match)? He was bragging about being the "Franchise Player". How did he come off to the audiences back then? As a heel.

    What has John Cena actually become in the last few years? THE FRANCHISE!

    How is the wwe audience at large responding to this?
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I think it plays both ways actually, and the company just has to ride with it properly, which is what I think they haven't done lately.

    When Hogan first came back, yes Vince wanted him to come back as a good guy to capitalize on popularity from his Rocy role and other things, but the way the fans reacted to him was so overwehlmingly positive that it forced them to push Hogan all the way to the top.

    Now yes, on the one hand it was determined that he should play a good guy before he came back, but if the fans reaction had been luke warm, he would have never been pushed so high.

    So in reality it WAS the fans who forced Hogan to the top, not the WWE and that's how its traditionally always been for the legit success stories of the biz.

    Sure you could say the story made Bret to look like the douche bag in 97 vs Austin, but had the fans still cheered him over Austin he would have never been fully turned.

    And why do I know this, because back then they still listened to the fans.

    Austin himsef has many times said that he was supposed to be the heel, but because of the fans loving him so much and always giving him great reactions they were FORCED to turn him face.

    And he became one of the biggest stars ever.

    So sure the storylines set Bret and Austin's double switch in motion but it was the fans that truely made it happen.

    Rocky in 99 was heel against Austin, but fans were cheering him so much and hanging on his every word that the WWE had to turn him face and the rest is history.

    Now look at how its changed, Cena had fans turn on him in 05, WWE refused to turn him, and he's never gotten solid fan support ever since.

    Now you can call his reign on top a success but its far more debatable than say Hogan, Austin or Rock who were all clearly chosen for greatness as to faces by the fans.

    Look at Daniel Bryan, fans wanted to get behind him last year with the YES chants and WWE tried to kill that reaction by changing it, why, who knows just how popular he could have become.

    He still is over, but what if they actually followed the old formula and ran with the original response instead of trying to forc one?

    Same thing with CM Punk, sure he had a legendary reign (albeit because of Rock) but how big would he have become if he were booked as THE man in 2011 over Cena even?

    Instead he played second fiddle to Cena and didn't headline a single PPV during his face championship run, and the revolution we all expected never came.

    Now that WAS because the writers forced it not to.

    So I think it is both ways, but only one is for the better.

    When the writers force things to happen true greatness never comes, but when the fans choose it it becomes legend IMO.


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    Senior Member Vince Mcmahon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BadNewsFan View Post
    When the writers force things to happen true greatness never comes, but when the fans choose it it becomes legend IMO.
    THIS is the central argument I am making. When did the company start using Hollywood writers? How many stars have reached the level of Hogan, Austin, and Rock in that time span?

    Now I know those guys are the exceptions and not the rule, but let us take into account the business from the original WrestleMania until WrestleMania XX and WrestleMania 21 until right now. There is a clear difference in how the business does things now in comparison.

    Using your post about Hogan in 1983 is interesting because Hogan had already reached a fever pitch level of popularity in the AWA. Verne Gagne actually did what the company does now and IGNORED the heat Hogan was getting and FORCED Bockwinkle over him. The boss up North saw this and LISTENED to the market by creating a scenario to capitalize on Hogan. In other words Hogan was "written" to what the people wanted using Iron Sheik. Hogan was a rock star version of Bob Backlund in terms of being cast as "The Real American" in comparison to Bob Backlund's "All American".

    This brings me to WM 21 with John Cena. Cena was obviously a guy on the rise, but was his rise like Hogan's in 1983-4? I don't think it was and the company FORCED it to seem like it was to the audience. The irony was Batista's rise was actually LISTENED to and it was "written" for him to get to the babyface top spot on RAW.

    Were fans interested in John Cena and was he getting grassroots support? YES. Cena had a rebellious attitude as I mentioned above calling himself "The Franchise", but he was still pretty much a heel. Was there a demand for Cena to be turned? I would say NO. Was there a demand to change his persona? I would say NO even louder.

    Thus we got the Cenation Era and the company trying to FORCE things instead of allowing it to grow because of the attitude of making it a "TV SHOW" and writing it as such which some allude to in other threads.

    Did Cena get bigger and bigger within the next two years? YES and he was put over by the likes of DX at back to back WM cards.

    The difference is between that time he feuded with HHH and HBK from WM 22-23 the company was reacting accordingly to his heat(which imo all started to get mixed because of the aforementioned force in the build to WM 21 and post WM 21).

    Cena right now it seems has not got that amount of heat since UNTIL he feuded with The Rock and there is reason for that. I just like the fact how the company has pretty much listened to the market in THIS particular feud with how it has been brewing since 2011. I think this Sunday though "The PEOPLE" should be listened to. How should the company react? A full blown heel turn or a more in tuned Cena with the audience where he says "F The World" and shows love to only those who show him love?

    I think this is a critical moment and time that could change the course of history which is why Cena has been saying what he has been saying in the last couple of weeks.

    HHH has been rumored to get rid of tightly scripted promos and I think tightly scripted directions should go the same way for certain stars and matches. A key to the business is getting people emotionally involved and they can't get involved if the product is static like other television shows that don't interact with the viewers except through the television screen medium like say a soap opera.
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    At the risk of this turning into another anti-Cena thread I believe it's important to point out that it appears the WWE are using crowd reactions to gauge Cena's direction from this day forward. I could be wrong and in 5 days the WWE may go with the vanilla option of Rock endorsing Cena but given the way the WWE has presented the last few Cena angles and emphasised the reactions for Cena I wouldn't be surprised to see it impact on the events at Mania.

    There are two arguments here.

    One, the WWE is too rigid in how they build superstars and it's difficult to get fans to support their wrestlers because it seems like they have no say in the matter. The perfect example here is Zack Ryder who as we all know now is basically just an enhancement guy.

    Then you've got wrestlers the WWE overcompensate for. When new wrestlers like Sin Cara (mood lighting) & Ryback (2-3 no name jobbers vs. 1) receive their own 'segments' without the fans investing in them I believe it has the opposite effect. Yes, Ryback was still relatively over but I just wonder how over he would have been if he was just booked as a regular ass-kicking powerhouse before he had his novelty handicap matches?

    But then you've got the opposite side of the fence where today's wrestling fans are smarter and also a lot more fickle. Most of the older fans have seen it all or at least are aware of the past. They always want something fresh but it's difficult to come up with that material for a show that broadcasts 104 episodic shows of television each year. Sometimes, you've just got to ride it out and chalk up negative reactions to other factors or consider 'other' reactions that aren't vocal.

    I'm beginning to ramble so I'll sum it up. Yeah, the WWE should write their television shows in a way in which they can get a reaction from the fans BUT the issues as to why the fans aren't emotionally invested in the characters run much deeper than that and booking the television show based on what the smark crowd thinks could hurt more than it helps.

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    MO to the G to the UNS! BadNewsFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I hear what you're saying Big Red but was it Smark crowds who elivated Austin Rock and Hogan?

    I mean I think you can blame smark crowds for some things like the Goldberg chants against Ryback, but the sheer amount of heat Cena gets, that's more than just smark reactions to me.

    Its pretty heavy everywhere they go, which makes it seem like a legit response, one worth addressing.

    You're right they can't book soely around smark reactions but a clear voice is another thing entierly.


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    Senior Member Vince Mcmahon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I want to say out front I don't think catering only to the "smark crowd" is good business or even is the point of the topic. I'm saying the WWE needs to be more like a coach in professional sports. For instance a coach would call an audible on a play due to the reaction of what the other team did on the play that was originally given. An example just from last week was Chris Jericho telling Fandango not to say a word. That was based off Jericho's experience and gauging the play of the crowd.

    I also don't think the big picture should be all that effected from one city because reactions are different from city to city for some stars. It comes back to being a good coach to your roster. I will use Sin Cara as an example. He came into the league as a Rey Mysterio type prodigy, but can anyone on this forum actually give a summary of Sin Cara since he has entered? What play can the audience give that Sin Cara can counter to create fans following his career and goals? NOTHING.

    Ryback is another scenario and I saw that a mile away him being in limbo because the company just throw him into a title match as a pinch hitter. When a baseball coach puts in a pinch hitter there is a game plan behind it. Sure the company needed a pinch hitter for John Cena in the match, but what about that play that makes it any good for Ryback? To top it off he was put into matches NOT as a pinch hitter as a rookie with no experience who ended up jobbing simply to fill out a ppv. I stated how HIAC should have been a one shot deal for Ryback and then build him up as his heat warranted.

    I had another thread about "It Doesn't Matter" because wins and losses are sometimes brushed under the rug as meaningless, but I don't really think the general audience looks at it that way. Wins and losses should matter in SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT and this current feud with John Cena and The Rock is a great example of how using winning and losing actually gets heat. Cena's whole game and trolling of Rock ALL THIS TIME has been trying to get that WIN against The Rock which he hasn't been able to do perhaps THIS SUNDAY. It supposedly has changed his whole demeanor since last year which allegedly led to his worse year in his career.

    The problem is are the fans BUYING that part of the story about last year being his worse year or do the fans even care if the New York Yankees have one bad year out of 8 years? The answer for Cena fans is yes, but it seems like the majority of fans fall into the "don't care" or "aren't buying it" since Cena has been so dominate. The true argument in Cena's case is that he hasn't worn the wwe title in almost 2 years which his haters can't use as an argument against his perceived dominance in the league. In that way the story is making sense, but in other ways it doesn't such as Cena beating Brock Lesnar last year and beating CM Punk his main rival of the last two years besides The Rock on RAW a few weeks back.

    The story is redemption, but are the fans buying that he needs to redeem himself? Do the fans want him to redeem himself? The WWE has got to call an audible on this imo. If the company feels that the audience does than a clean 123 pinfall over the WWE Champion this Sunday will be the coach's call and if the coach believes that the franchise player is not seen as a guy who doesn't need redeeming than an audible of something out of the ordinary needs to happen.
    Last edited by Vince Mcmahon; 04-02-2013 at 02:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I don't understand why you're (BadNews) turning this into a Cena discussion?

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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    I don't understand why you're (BadNews) turning this into a Cena discussion?
    Probably because it's one of the biggest conflicting viewpoints between the fans and the writers?

    And because The Rock literally cut a promo last night about "what the people want" and said pretty clearly that it's not Cena?


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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BadNewsFan View Post
    I hear what you're saying Big Red but was it Smark crowds who elivated Austin Rock and Hogan?

    I mean I think you can blame smark crowds for some things like the Goldberg chants against Ryback, but the sheer amount of heat Cena gets, that's more than just smark reactions to me.

    Its pretty heavy everywhere they go, which makes it seem like a legit response, one worth addressing.

    You're right they can't book soely around smark reactions but a clear voice is another thing entierly.
    That's the thing. It is easy to dismiss a certain part of the audience as being too smart for their own good, but why is that belief not used when it is someone like HBK getting face reactions in 1995 as a heel challenger against Diesel? We know in that situation Nash's character turned into a forced one by the company and HBK was genuinely getting face pops because the crowds started to like him from WM X in the ladder match. Years later HBK ended up being the top babyface and cool "heel" that faced Steve Austin at WM 14.
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionhart View Post
    Probably because it's one of the biggest conflicting viewpoints between the fans and the writers?

    And because The Rock literally cut a promo last night about "what the people want" and said pretty clearly that it's not Cena?
    It's clear then that the WWE are doing exactly what the op wants then with Cena.

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    Senior Member Vince Mcmahon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    It's clear then that the WWE are doing exactly what the op wants then with Cena.
    Yes I think they are doing it with John Cena only because in this instance the company's hands are tied due to the passion and commitment fans have to their star quarterback in The Rock. The company made the play last year in Miami that "The Franchise" couldn't beat "The Legacy". The Rock also stated he would not pass the torch on RAW this week unless it was of fire and brimstone cataclysmic proportions and he knew he could say it without backlash from people because majority of the fans DON'T want Rock to pass him the torch because they feel his inferior. This has the makings of some CLASSIC stuff going down this Sunday, but the video packages aren't telling the story like this or at least NOT YET.

    In sports do teams and athletes just "lay down" for the dynasty/franchise to take the championship? Not even Hulk Hogan at WM VI did that completely as Hogan was forced to present Ultimate Warrior with the WWE Championship because of his character of doing what was right and telling people to live by what you preach.

    With Andre The Giant in 1987 he did not like Hulk Hogan getting all the praise of being a dominant athlete which caused him to challenge for the championship. Even in defeat Andre The Giant got on television on SNME and complained that he beat Hogan within seconds of the match starting which was arguable. It was only years later the story came out that it was a "passing of the torch" outside of kayfabe.
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionhart View Post
    Probably because it's one of the biggest conflicting viewpoints between the fans and the writers?

    And because The Rock literally cut a promo last night about "what the people want" and said pretty clearly that it's not Cena?
    This

    And to answer Big Red, I'm not really making it about Cena only because in a few post above I had mentioned Daniel Bryan and Punk too.

    But Cena is the big story in this though.


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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    How is Cena the big story in all of this? If anything he's the exception and not the rule. If this was 2006 I'd be right with you but in 2013 (heck 2011) times have changed. If the WWE weren't listening to the fans, then there is absolutely no way Punk goes over Cena on two consecutive PPVs. If they weren't listening to the fans, The Rock wouldn't be standing tall over Cena on 3 consecutive major shows they worked together. If the WWE weren't listening to them, then they would acknowledge the fans like they have been in this feud.

    Look if you guys want to have another anti-Cena thread then hey go right ahead. It's a forum after all, discussion is the name of the game. I just think the topic is played out and that this topic doesn't really pertain to him anymore.

    In fact, I believe it has more to do with the likes of Alberto Del Rio, Jack Swagger, Fandango & Big E Langston if anything. Guys who have been given the spot without necessarily doing anything to earn it. There's a discussion to be had there and ideas to be thrown around in effective ways to build stars.

    Would be interesting to get a FF perspective. Particularly from guys like WMS and Shinobi.

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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    How is Cena the big story in all of this? If anything he's the exception and not the rule. If this was 2006 I'd be right with you but in 2013 (heck 2011) times have changed. If the WWE weren't listening to the fans, then there is absolutely no way Punk goes over Cena on two consecutive PPVs. If they weren't listening to the fans, The Rock wouldn't be standing tall over Cena on 3 consecutive major shows they worked together. If the WWE weren't listening to them, then they would acknowledge the fans like they have been in this feud.

    Look if you guys want to have another anti-Cena thread then hey go right ahead. It's a forum after all, discussion is the name of the game. I just think the topic is played out and that this topic doesn't really pertain to him anymore.

    In fact, I believe it has more to do with the likes of Alberto Del Rio, Jack Swagger, Fandango & Big E Langston if anything. Guys who have been given the spot without necessarily doing anything to earn it. There's a discussion to be had there and ideas to be thrown around in effective ways to build stars.

    Would be interesting to get a FF perspective. Particularly from guys like WMS and Shinobi.
    I disagree, I think as long as Cena is the top face of the company and he's getting booed out of the arena, this kind of discussion will always revolve around him.

    Its the best example of the WWE doing what they want over what the fans want.

    Its always gonna be relvant in this kind of discussion.

    All those other guys are important in this topic too, and again, I even talked about CM Punk and Daniel Bryan in my post too, but just because I make mention of Cena its supposedly me turning it into anti Cena thing.

    And CM Punk going over Cena would've meant something more if he didn't still play second fiddle to Cena afterwards, when he was clearly more over with the vast majority of the fans and he was champion.

    They held CM Punk down while trying to make it seem like they were listening to the fans but they weren't, well not exactly.

    Punk never actually beat Cena in any clean dominant way, and he never was the made the face of the company over him either, which is what people wanted.

    Punk's main event run was IMO more of a way to keep the anti Cena fans satisfied while they still forcing them to watch Cena in the top spot.
    Last edited by BadNewsFan; 04-03-2013 at 02:48 PM.


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    COYG Todd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I think SummerSlam 2011 bombing had something to do with them losing faith in Punk. As well, it all got fucked up with HHH and Nash and whatever in God's name they were trying to put together there.

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    Big Pimpin' Big Pete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moguns
    All those other guys are important in this topic too, and again, I even talked about CM Punk and Daniel Bryan in my post too, but just because I make mention of Cena its supposedly me turning it into anti Cena thing.
    Not in the post I was referring to. The one that was a direct response to mine.

    I have no interest in another anti-Cena discussion so I'll let you guys have at it.

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    MO to the G to the UNS! BadNewsFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    Not in the post I was referring to. The one that was a direct response to mine.

    I have no interest in another anti-Cena discussion so I'll let you guys have at it.
    I get what you're saying its just that Cena is bound to come up in most of these types of discussions, even if the posters aren't trying to be anti Cena, like me.

    I wasn't really dissing anything about the man but I had to reference his push as it perfectly fits into this thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    I think SummerSlam 2011 bombing had something to do with them losing faith in Punk. As well, it all got fucked up with HHH and Nash and whatever in God's name they were trying to put together there.
    But Summerslam featured Punk, Cena, and HHH all in the main event, so I don't see how anyone could look at that show bombing as simply Punk's fault especially since most people probably thought Cena would win the belt back.

    And yea them having Nash burry Punk on the mic and HHH beat him right after that damn sure didn't help.


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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I don't disagree with you man, but IMO that was definitely the justification. Cena and HHH are already proven in WWE's eyes. Punk was the variable, and in his first title defence the show bombed. I don't think they expected it and it forced them to re-think the angle a bit.

    But I'm not saying they were right for one second.

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    Default Re: Letting THE PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!! Key to WWF/E GREATNESS!!!

    I honestly do not think the fans wanted Punk to be the face of the company. CM Punk got cheered in his hometown and was cheered by smarks in other towns, that's it. His main schtick was using insider references for a certain audience and that was not going to last a long time. Punk becomes face of the company. Runs out of pipebombs to drop. Where does he go from there? The fans did not care about Punk for any other reason. If HHH became the corporate heel, the asshole audience we have today probably would have started cheering him.

    Cena turns heel during that summer, the smarks start cheering Cena, do you turn Cena face again that quick?

    Big Pete is totally in the right in this thread. It is very hard to gauge the audience today because alot of them love to react the way they are not expected to, just to show how "smart" they are. Do you know how many heel/face turns would happen if they listened to today's audience? So many to the point that turns would not matter anymore. That is exactly what happened during the Attitude Era. Cena feuds with Punk and gets booed. Cena feuds with ADR afterwards and gets cheered. Do we turn him face again just because of that?

    Cena turns heel this Sunday to win the WWE Championship, he then starts getting cheered. Do we ruin the most anticipated heel turn in years by making it way too short? We can't just kill the whole heel/face thing either because wrestling and most television shows in general are ruined without good vs evil. I don't need the characters to be just as inconsistent as the vocal minority in the audience. You have to remember that pro wrestling is a year round thing, there needs to be consistency even if you have to put up with negative reactions from the cynical segment of the audience.

    Sure, all of that could be taken away by ridding the art of heel and babyface. But then wrestling loses it's good vs evil roots.

    For those who say Punk should have become the man during the summer of worked shoots what are you doing with Cena afterwards? Remember, he still needs to be strong because he is headlining Wrestlemania with The Rock. Plus what if Punk is getting cheered like crazy by the live crowd, but Cena is demoted to midcard and still outdrawing everyone else despite the mixed reactions? How odd would that look?

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