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Thread: Trayvon Martin case. *merged*

  1. #26
    The Devil's Eyes BigRed's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    I am also curious since the federal government is involved, what implications there may be in terms of Zimmerman being potentially charged with a hate crime.

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werehunter View Post
    The Stand Your Ground law has nothing to do with this case. No one involved in the case, other then Martin's parents have made that claim. Zimmerman's own lawyer said that it does not apply. The police said that it does not apply. It was the media, I believe CNN, who first brought up the Stand Your Ground law. What Zimmerman is claiming is the regular self defense law which states that you can used lethal force is you think your life is in danger. And if Zimmerman's story that Martin was on top of him, slammed his head into the ground and kept attacking him then Zimmerman might have been at the point where lethal force is allowed.
    Right, ok. Sorry, I've only been paying attention to this story from what I've seen on TV. I didn't know that everyone that mattered had already said it didn't apply. Fucking CNN.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
    I am also curious since the federal government is involved, what implications there may be in terms of Zimmerman being potentially charged with a hate crime.
    I doubt it. Half-Latino guy gets charged with a hate crime for shooting a black kid after a fight? You think the prisons are crowded now?

  3. #28
    Given A 2nd Chance Blindy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hypeman View Post
    People with a history of violence should not be allowed to own guns.

    But walking around alone at night time is just insane to me. No idea what his city's like, but I'd be out of my mind to do that where I live. And honestly, he should have called the cops as soon as he noticed the 250 pound psycho stalking him.
    You bring up a great point in that there's no way a psycho should be carrying a gun. Its similar to the pilot from JetBlue who is a dipshit and tried to kill people and scare people with his terrorist pleas. Its scary to know the people out there that are packing heat.

    There has to be SOME kind of medical form or what not to get a gun license. I know it won't stop people selling guns on the downlow but at the very least it can cut down on some of this nonsense.

    That being said though, as you said...you have to have common sense to not be by yourself at the night in such a neighborhood, especially if he's not so familiar with the area, being a student who was previously kicked out of his school in FLA.

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Heard a little about this. Just want to say, it's a common thing for people to think of people wearing hoodies as someone who is a troublemaker. It's stupid that that's the case but it happens. If I wear a hoodie, I hardly ever wear the hood up and there's been supermarkets and stuff int he UK that have kicked people out simply for wearing their hood up on their hoodie. Anyway, it's ridiculous that people are categorized for the clothes they wear. I know there are a lot of people that wear hoodies that cause trouble and create violence but so do many people in normal clothing.

    RIP Trayvon.

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  5. #30
    Given A 2nd Chance Blindy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrestling MVP View Post
    Heard a little about this. Just want to say, it's a common thing for people to think of people wearing hoodies as someone who is a troublemaker. It's stupid that that's the case but it happens. If I wear a hoodie, I hardly ever wear the hood up and there's been supermarkets and stuff int he UK that have kicked people out simply for wearing their hood up on their hoodie. Anyway, it's ridiculous that people are categorized for the clothes they wear. I know there are a lot of people that wear hoodies that cause trouble and create violence but so do many people in normal clothing.

    RIP Trayvon.
    It is stupid and its a generalization, my posts before should in no way condemn it. Its just speaking from a point where you have to use your common sense, as you said it will create a lot of unwarranted glares and attention. I went jogging out one time in cold weather and I was swearing on my head area so I put my hood up and a few minutes later one lady legit RAN out of her car and into her house This is coming from someone who is pale white.

    Its the same with me and my "Terrorist Mask". I wear it to keep my face warm up in cold climate but if I went out on the streets like that, the police right away will want to speak to me.

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindy View Post
    That being said though, as you said...you have to have common sense to not be by yourself at the night in such a neighborhood, especially if he's not so familiar with the area, being a student who was previously kicked out of his school in FLA.
    He was in a gated community buying snacks at a store.

  7. #32
    Senior Member vendrell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    If he did say "Coons" I'd say they had a hate crime on their hands but that audio of Zimmerman, he could be saying any number of things. People just want to hear "coon" to justify hating this man. and I do understand the outrage from the black community as they feel they might be on the short end of the stick when it comes to fair treatment in the justice system and sadly I do think it's a fair point to make that if the roles were reversed and a black man shot an unarmed white kid he would be in jail right now but none of that makes it ok to jail Zimmerman on what there is right now. It's innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent...but hey, tell that to the west memphis three and they'll tell you it doesn't always work that way.

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    Senior Member The_fallen's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by David*Dream* View Post
    Which is even worse. The house was empty, no lives were at risk. The idiot should have let the cops do their job.

    Ya there also something more to story though that can't remember right now either i think some how the criminals ended up on his property so that's why he shot them



    Alright so i was wrong he didn't know his neighbor that well but criminals did come on to his land

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werehunter View Post
    The Stand Your Ground law has nothing to do with this case. No one involved in the case, other then Martin's parents have made that claim. Zimmerman's own lawyer said that it does not apply. The police said that it does not apply. It was the media, I believe CNN, who first brought up the Stand Your Ground law. What Zimmerman is claiming is the regular self defense law which states that you can used lethal force is you think your life is in danger. And if Zimmerman's story that Martin was on top of him, slammed his head into the ground and kept attacking him then Zimmerman might have been at the point where lethal force is allowed.
    So, you believe that Zimmerman allowed 17-year-old, much smaller than himself, to take him down, mount him, and bash his head into the ground... and THEN decided to pull out his gun? He didn't think to shoot the kid the leg when he first began the assault?

  10. #35
    Werehunter
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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    All I said was that the Stand Your Ground Law does not apply and only the media has claimed it was his defense.

    What I believe is that no one knows what happened other than Zimmerman.

    What I do know is that his claim is that Martin attacked him, knocking him to the ground and bashed his head into the ground. Even a witness has claimed to have seen Martin onto of Zimmerman and Zimmerman pleading for help. Considered the way I've seen some 17 year-old kids fight, I can easily see one getting the upper hand, especially if as Zimmerman claimed the kid struck first. If that story is true, then the hundreds of year old self defense law could easily apply. Did it have to escalate to that point, no. Which is why I stated in my first post that Zimmerman should be charged with Negligent Homicide unless more information comes out that elevates it to straight up murder.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werehunter View Post
    All I said was that the Stand Your Ground Law does not apply and only the media has claimed it was his defense.

    What I believe is that no one knows what happened other than Zimmerman.

    What I do know is that his claim is that Martin attacked him, knocking him to the ground and bashed his head into the ground. Even a witness has claimed to have seen Martin onto of Zimmerman and Zimmerman pleading for help. Considered the way I've seen some 17 year-old kids fight, I can easily see one getting the upper hand, especially if as Zimmerman claimed the kid struck first. If that story is true, then the hundreds of year old self defense law could easily apply. Did it have to escalate to that point, no. Which is why I stated in my first post that Zimmerman should be charged with Negligent Homicide unless more information comes out that elevates it to straight up murder.
    Very rational as always..



    I would interject something I've not heard anyone in the media touch on or anywhere else... if any of you have heard what I'm about to say I'd be interested in the whos, whats and wheres. By all accounts including the 911 phone call Zimmerman was following Martin... so if Martin did turn and attack him as Zimmerman states, doesn't the stand your ground law apply to Trevon defending himself? I mean he's in his fathers neighborhood and a 250 pound dude is following him, doesn't he have a reasonable expectation to defend himself?


    Well... don'tcha?

  12. #37
    Werehunter
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    From what I can tell this is what is required for the Stand Your Ground Law to apply in FL.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0776/0776.html

    776.012
    (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
    (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
    (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
    (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
    (b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
    (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
    (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
    (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
    (4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
    (5) As used in this section, the term:
    (a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
    (b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
    (c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.


    776.041
    Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
    (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
    History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.
    Based on that, it seems to me that it wouldn't apply to Martin since he wasn't in a dwelling, residence or vehicle and that just following someone is likely not enough to warrant "imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself".

  13. #38
    but secretly C to the C Engel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werehunter View Post
    All I said was that the Stand Your Ground Law does not apply and only the media has claimed it was his defense.

    What I believe is that no one knows what happened other than Zimmerman.

    What I do know is that his claim is that Martin attacked him, knocking him to the ground and bashed his head into the ground. Even a witness has claimed to have seen Martin onto of Zimmerman and Zimmerman pleading for help. Considered the way I've seen some 17 year-old kids fight, I can easily see one getting the upper hand, especially if as Zimmerman claimed the kid struck first. If that story is true, then the hundreds of year old self defense law could easily apply. Did it have to escalate to that point, no. Which is why I stated in my first post that Zimmerman should be charged with Negligent Homicide unless more information comes out that elevates it to straight up murder.
    Stand Your Ground is highly relevant here, because this is a self-defense case in which the defender initiated the conflict. While it is growing out of fashion, if self defense law had the Duty to Retreat provision, this would be an entirely different case. In this case it is obvious that after Zimmerman called 9-11 he did not retreat. Those who mention self defense and the stand your law ground mindset are doing so to contrast it with the duty to retreat mindset, where you get to safety and let the police deal with it if you can and only use lethal force if you cannot retreat safely.

    This whole case really brings out the worst in people who discuss it. I have a friend, covered in tattoos, piercings and what not who says that a black man in a hoodie should be seen as dangerous. Of course her being seen as dangerous due to her image never crossed her mind because she is white. I am ashamed of how people I know who basically said n-gger had it coming. It is easy to lose sight of what this case boils down to. An armed white man, killing an unarmed black 17 year old kid in the street. Everyone is twisted this into other things to promote political agenda's and feed the 24 hour news machine, but Were said it best early on. Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his car and there is no reason for Martin to be dead. Keep in mind when you read the slants about this story that in the end it is about a kid who is dead due to the use of lethal force.

    Zimmerman's injuries are being played up though. Police video fails to show the signs of a struggle that is being described. Notice the lack of blood on the back on the head, the lack of blood around the nose or the bruising around the nasal area that is a telltale sign of a serious break. So any injuries were healed immediately after the fight by paramedics.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...juries?ps=cprs


    I am really shocked personally there have no been riots. Not over this isolated case, but black kids being killed excessive force is a common story again.
    Last edited by Engel; 03-29-2012 at 06:14 PM.


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    Senior Member JACKNIFE's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    well from what i have read and heard about this it sounds to me this guy is a wanna-be cop who ignored orders from the real police and walked up to question this kid. the teen reacted to his actions in a violent way (with him believing he was defending himself a possibity, who knows how this guy presented himself when he walked up to the kid) and one of them didnt walk away from it. so...

    -this jackass shoulda knew his place and just stayed in the car.

    -but also to be fair the 17 year old teen coulda just booked it and out ran the middle aged 250 pound man and used his cell to call the cops himself (unless he pulled the gun straight away)

    also the fact that it makes a difference wether the man should be catagorized has "latino" or "white" is also just has bad. it implys that this whole situation is less negative if a latino shot a black person instead of a white person. people shooting people is just bad PERIOD.
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    Senior Member The_fallen's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engel View Post
    Stand Your Ground is highly relevant here, because this is a self-defense case in which the defender initiated the conflict. While it is growing out of fashion, if self defense law had the Duty to Retreat provision, this would be an entirely different case. In this case it is obvious that after Zimmerman called 9-11 he did not retreat. Those who mention self defense and the stand your law ground mindset are doing so to contrast it with the duty to retreat mindset, where you get to safety and let the police deal with it if you can and only use lethal force if you cannot retreat safely.

    This whole case really brings out the worst in people who discuss it. I have a friend, covered in tattoos, piercings and what not who says that a black man in a hoodie should be seen as dangerous. Of course her being seen as dangerous due to her image never crossed her mind because she is white. I am ashamed of how people I know who basically said n-gger had it coming. It is easy to lose sight of what this case boils down to. An armed white man, killing an unarmed black 17 year old kid in the street. Everyone is twisted this into other things to promote political agenda's and feed the 24 hour news machine, but Were said it best early on. Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his car and there is no reason for Martin to be dead. Keep in mind when you read the slants about this story that in the end it is about a kid who is dead due to the use of lethal force.

    Zimmerman's injuries are being played up though. Police video fails to show the signs of a struggle that is being described. Notice the lack of blood on the back on the head, the lack of blood around the nose or the bruising around the nasal area that is a telltale sign of a serious break.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...juries?ps=cprs


    I am really shocked personally there have no been riots. Not over this isolated case, but black kids being killed excessive force is a common story again.

    He didn't have to retreat the 9-11 operator doesn't have the authority to demand someone retreat was it stupid of him not to retreat yes but he broke no law by not doing so

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engel View Post
    Stand Your Ground is highly relevant here, because this is a self-defense case in which the defender initiated the conflict. While it is growing out of fashion, if self defense law had the Duty to Retreat provision, this would be an entirely different case. In this case it is obvious that after Zimmerman called 9-11 he did not retreat. Those who mention self defense and the stand your law ground mindset are doing so to contrast it with the duty to retreat mindset, where you get to safety and let the police deal with it if you can and only use lethal force if you cannot retreat safely.

    This whole case really brings out the worst in people who discuss it. I have a friend, covered in tattoos, piercings and what not who says that a black man in a hoodie should be seen as dangerous. Of course her being seen as dangerous due to her image never crossed her mind because she is white. I am ashamed of how people I know who basically said n-gger had it coming. It is easy to lose sight of what this case boils down to. An armed white man, killing an unarmed black 17 year old kid in the street. Everyone is twisted this into other things to promote political agenda's and feed the 24 hour news machine, but Were said it best early on. Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his car and there is no reason for Martin to be dead. Keep in mind when you read the slants about this story that in the end it is about a kid who is dead due to the use of lethal force.

    Zimmerman's injuries are being played up though. Police video fails to show the signs of a struggle that is being described. Notice the lack of blood on the back on the head, the lack of blood around the nose or the bruising around the nasal area that is a telltale sign of a serious break. So any injuries were healed immediately after the fight by paramedics.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...juries?ps=cprs


    I am really shocked personally there have no been riots. Not over this isolated case, but black kids being killed excessive force is a common story again.
    Riots are so 1992. The black community has more respect for themselves.

    I do, however, want to see more of this:


  17. #42
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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    RT LIKE TENT, THERE IS NO PLACE IN CIVIL SOCIETY FOR SUBVERSIVE HOODIES!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_fallen View Post
    He didn't have to retreat the 9-11 operator doesn't have the authority to demand someone retreat was it stupid of him not to retreat yes but he broke no law by not doing so
    Duty to Retreat is not the law in this case, but is a law that many feel should be in place instead of Stand Your Ground to prevent stuff like this from happening. I am curious about this mindset though. Why wouldn't you retreat? You are stalking a young black man who is engaged in no criminal behavior, you already called 9-11, why confront him with a loaded gun?


    NPR did a good review of the viral spread of this story. Can see how it started, how it spread and how it could be twisted at each step:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ory-went-viral


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  18. #43
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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindy View Post
    There's something called an umbrella....

    The heck is a hoodie going to do when its raining?
    Still keep the rain off his head. All the moreso if it's only lightly raining and one might not see the need for an umbrella.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_fallen View Post
    He didn't have to retreat the 9-11 operator doesn't have the authority to demand someone retreat was it stupid of him not to retreat yes but he broke no law by not doing so
    In which case Zimmerman becomes some creepy dude who's stalking a seventeen-year old kid. If it's 10 pm at night and someone I don't know is following me as I walk down the street, I'm not going to assume he wants to buy me a cup of coffee out of the goodness of his heart.

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    Senior Member The_fallen's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engel View Post
    RT LIKE TENT, THERE IS NO PLACE IN CIVIL SOCIETY FOR SUBVERSIVE HOODIES!!!



    Duty to Retreat is not the law in this case, but is a law that many feel should be in place instead of Stand Your Ground to prevent stuff like this from happening. I am curious about this mindset though. Why wouldn't you retreat? You are stalking a young black man who is engaged in no criminal behavior, you already called 9-11, why confront him with a loaded gun?


    NPR did a good review of the viral spread of this story. Can see how it started, how it spread and how it could be twisted at each step:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ory-went-viral
    So you wanna take away a law that could save someone life in the future and put in place a law stating that if your in situation where it's life or death and your told to retreat you should. Even if it means your killed in the process nice

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    but secretly C to the C Engel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Ask yourself this, is this self defense? You call 9/11 and report a kid walking with a hoodie. You follow him by truck for some time. The kid runs, and you follow first in your car, but you lose him. You now get of your car and search for him, armed with a pistol. You find him and he runs again while you chase him. The kid confronts you and asks why you are following him while you demand to what he is doing. The kid gets angry and you shoot him to death.

    This is a rough timeline that is unfolding of the events that lead to Zimmerman using lethal force to defend himself against the threat that this teenager posed. The chase period is bit blurred as to whether he encountered Zimmerman once or twice because testimony comes from Martin's girlfriend who believes she killed him by telling him to run away from Zimmerman and just get home.


    Also not gonna respond to Duty to Retreat comments until you read the posts.


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    @Foos

  21. #46
    Lorcurio? Locuro's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_fallen View Post
    So you wanna take away a law that could save someone life in the future and put in place a law stating that if your in situation where it's life or death and your told to retreat you should. Even if it means your killed in the process nice
    What in the world is this? There is no life or death situation in this case if Zimmerman simply takes the dispatcher's advice and does not pursue Martin. If Zimmerman takes the sensible course of action (calls 911, reports suspicious activity, and then retreats/stays the hell away) then there is no confrontation and nobody gets killed.
    Credit to Bender for the awesome sig!

  22. #47
    Senior Member vendrell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    and the "why should he listen to the 911 operator, they have no authority" is kind of a silly statement. They are trained to handle situations similar or exactly like this every single day, when they tell you to do something you should trust in their judgement...this guy had the "I don't need to listen to them" mentality, tried to play cop and now his life is basically ruined even if he doesn't go to prison.

  23. #48
    but secretly C to the C Engel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Yup, internet has a LONG memory and now he is linked with murder, so, not gonna pass many job applications.

    Duty to Retreat is the expectation that in a threatening situation a person will first seek to flee to safety if possible. If they cannot flee safely then they are entitled to stand their ground. There is a further exception in most states called the castle doctrine that excludes retreating from your home.

    Not sure why this is so hard to understand, or why people think it means you cannot defend yourself.


    Flowers gathered in the morning,
    Afternoon they blossom on,
    Still are withered by the evening:
    You can be me when I'm gone.

    @Foos

  24. #49
    is not your buddy, guy.

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engel View Post
    Not sure why this is so hard to understand, or why people think it means you cannot defend yourself.
    Because people that are uneducated about the law are getting all their info from CNN and FoxNews.

    I admit, most of my information regarding the case has come from television, but I at least went and studied the laws being called into question. Everyone should really be doing the same thing.

    Know your rights and know your laws, people. It won't seem important until it is.

  25. #50
    but secretly C to the C Engel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trayvon Martin case.

    I remember the laws from the thread in World Issues where I decided that when I can get my own place, I will make sure it is a state with the Castle Doctrine and install fucking turrets. You know just in case someone tries to break in.


    Flowers gathered in the morning,
    Afternoon they blossom on,
    Still are withered by the evening:
    You can be me when I'm gone.

    @Foos

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