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Thread: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

  1. #551
    Senior Member Fezz's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Fonzie's whistle was LOUD! He was speeded most of the time. ECW was drug friendly.
    "Don't break the Kayfabe"

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    Beat the Devil out of it Leper Messiah's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Quote Originally Posted by Fezz View Post
    Fonzie's whistle was LOUD! He was speeded most of the time. ECW was drug friendly.
    I can believe that. His teeth were pretty bad. Not to mention, the way he wrapped his arms around the ropes and bounce off them was like someone on speed.

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    I'm watching the June 9th 1997 episode of Raw now and it's inspired me to put this thread on ice and revive my "1997 tapes" thread to catch it up to this point. To just review one promotion, whether it's WCW, WWF, or ECW, you are missing two other sides of the story. All three companies were part of a bigger picture and were really feeding off of each other. Going to jump back into the WCW/WWF tapes picking up in March and catching it up with this thread before I get back into the ECW stuff.

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Was able to confirm that ECW Barely Legal did a .26 which is 104,000 buys. Just to put that into perspective, Barely Legal sold more pay per views than all of these MMA shows:

    UFC 33 Ortiz v. Matyushenko 75,000
    UFC 34 Couture v. Rizzo 65,000
    UFC 35 Pulver v. Penn 35,000
    UFC 36 Couture v. Barnett 55,000
    UFC 37 Lindland v. Bustamante 50,000
    UFC 38 Hughes v. Newton 45,000
    UFC 39 Couture v. Rodriguez 45,000
    UFC 40 Ortiz v. Shamrock 100,000
    UFC 41 Rodriguez v. Sylvia 60,000
    UFC 42 Hughes v. Sherk 35,000
    UFC 43 Couture v. Liddell 49,000
    UFC 44 Couture v. Ortiz 94,000
    UFC 45 Hughes v. Trigg 40,000
    UFC 46 Couture v. Belfort II 80,000
    UFC 49 Couture v. Belfort III 80,000
    UFC 50 Ortiz v. Cote 40,000
    UFC 53 Arlovski v. Eilers 90,000

    That's pretty crazy when you consider the amount of money and resources that Zuffa was pumping into the UFC in 2001-2005. We're talking 10's of millions of dollars they investing over that period of time. UFC 44, Couture vs Ortiz was the first UFC show to receive coverage from the USA Today and ESPN and Barely Legal still outsold it. UFC 53 had regular commercials playing on Spike TV and that number still fell short of what Barely Legal did. None of the Bellator, Strikeforce, Affliction, or Pride pay per views even came close, all of them were flops selling around 30,000 buys. Ortiz vs Liddell at UFC 47 was probably the biggest UFC fight ever up to that point and it only sold 1,000 more pay per views than Barely Legal, doing 105,000.

  5. #555
    Member Fisto's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    ecw was in a pretty awkward transitional phase from barely legal/wrestlepalooza til september. other than raven and richards, they didnt seem to know what to do with the tag division with the elimintors gone. (dudleys vs pg13 at hardcore heaven, who the fuck thought that was a good idea) the new triple threat wasn't taking off (all three are problay better on their own than together). and some wrestlers were getting phased out like the pitbulls. god damn that pissed me off, those guys were tough motherfuckers. spicolli to, i guess there was some personal shit going on.

    awsome seeing taz hold the strap, but they couldn't find good opponents for him most of the time. other than some squash matches, he was only doing run ins. also they still couldn't find anything for balls(with sandman busy with sabu) or the fbi throughout the summer, they were kinda just there.

    while rvd fit the lawler angle perfectly, sabu really didn't. i think heyman was trying to play it off as, he abandoned ecw before, now he's doing it again. but anything involving those 3, dreamer, sandman, and funk was fun. that was really the only good angle during the summer, but there were some good moments, like bigelow murdering spike, some good chris candido matches, the one night return of the shah, and of couse, Rick Rude on commentary. best announce pairing ever? he always said the best shit.

    when doulgas is getting his ass kicked, Joey: the franchise is going limp
    rude: francine says he's always limp.

    during a sabu match: where he's from, you loose a match, you're in the menu.

    on a side note, i think this has been mentioned before, but could saturn have had a good singals run in ecw. he was carrying that team, and always pulling off insane spots.also had some good moves like his elbow drop and frankensteiner. heard something about him asking paul for a singles run but paul wanting to keep the eliminators together.i dont know, i think he could have had good matches.

  6. #556
    I feel kinda invincible Kilgore's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisto View Post
    on a side note, i think this has been mentioned before, but could saturn have had a good singals run in ecw. he was carrying that team, and always pulling off insane spots.also had some good moves like his elbow drop and frankensteiner. heard something about him asking paul for a singles run but paul wanting to keep the eliminators together.i dont know, i think he could have had good matches.
    I never thought of a singles Saturn in ECW in 1997/1998, but I don't see why it wouldn't have worked. I think less of Candido than you, so I would've preferred Saturn in the no gimmicks needed badass role of the Triple Threat, with Shane working the stick for him (I also think Taz vs. Saturn would have been far superior than Taz vs. Candido at HH97 or HH99). But timing wise, Candido was already a member before Saturn could ever become one (unless he takes Bam Bam's spot, which I don't want to do).

    I guess Saturn could've been an ECW turncoat. Saturn doesn't really work as a face, because he would've been redundant with Taz' face turn. I can't think of anything interesting for him in '97, but I can't help but think ECW would have been better with him there. I even remember when he was getting his initial TV title singles push in WCW thinking WCW was making better due with Saturn than ECW did, which is something I rarely thought.


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    Member Fisto's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    interesting you mention saturn in the triple threat. heard a podcast ages ago with saturn. i think it was during his tna run, so i don't know where his brain was and if this was true, but back in fall of 96, they were gonna split up the eliminators, and put him and taz with shane as the triple threat. then heyman decided to put the eliminators over doc and gordy and keep them as a team. i could see saturn as a triple threat, but taz, no way that would work.

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    I definitely think Saturn could have been great as a singles guy in ECW. It seemed like he was being prepped for a singles run at times as an Eliminator, he was always the guy cutting promos and he was usually protected(Kronus usually always took the pin whenever the Eliminators lost). He had some cool promos here and there and I always did like him in WCW. A split feud with Kronus would have been cool, vs Sabu, vs New Jack, vs Taz, vs RVD, plenty of feuds for him. I like the idea of Saturn in the Triple Threat. It seemed like they were considering a Shane Douglas-Eliminators Triple Threat after Natural Born Killaz when Shane helped them beat the Gangstas and I think they even cut a few promos together after that on Hardcore TV but they went a different direction.

  9. #559
    Josh Dionio
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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    A little article on New Jack that I figured might fit into here. It's a good read with some bits from Heyman, Apter, and others.

    http://grantland.com/features/new-ja...id=GrantlandFB

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    That is one of the best articles I have read on the internet in quite some time. Thank you for sharing that. I have to say that the Mass Transit incident is one of the most exaggerated and overly sensationalized incidents I've ever come across, New Jack milks it for all he can as part of his act. I think if Kulas(or any of the other scrubs that New Jack legit hurt) did what he did with Bill Watts crew back in the day or Bob Roop or some Dojo in Japan he would have gotten hurt WAY worse than what New Jack did to him that night. The cut wasn't anywhere near as bad as I've seen it made out to be and Jack wasn't being any stiffer with him than some of his regular matches with guys like Public Enemy or the Dudleys.



    Torn ligaments, torn muscles, broken bones, those types of injuries are far more damaging than a cut, we're talking possible long term problems with your arms, shoulders, etc vs a couple of stitches. While I don't think it's ok or cool, I can at least understand the mentality that this was what these guys did to make money and put food on the table, for some scrub to come in off the streets untrained and go back to the general public talking about how fake and easy wrestling is was just unacceptable to these guys back then.

    The whole Vic Grimes ordeal was a total work that New Jack milked for all he could get out of it. The fake electric stunner, Grimes running and jumping himself off of the scaffold. The true scumbag in that incident was the promoter Rob Black, a scaffold 30 foot in the air it was guaranteed that something bad was going to happen, whether New Jack was involved or anybody else. Anyone who truly believes New Jack tried to kill Vic Grimes is a mark being worked.
    Last edited by ShinobiMusashi; 08-20-2015 at 11:42 AM.

  11. #561
    Senior Member Fezz's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    New Jack was a menace-in the ring. I met him many times in the lot before he went into"character." He was a sweet guy. Never bogarted the blunt, opened beers for everybody,didn't cuss. Then an hour later he was a BEAST. He united the crowd. Black,white, and brown loved him. He was better with Mustafa. Solo it became tired. I will post the polaroid of me and the Gangstas. I love New Jack, a true gentleman.
    "Don't break the Kayfabe"

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    Senior Member Ed's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    I can't wait to get DVD it looks fantastic. I've always been a huge Shane Douglas fan.



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    Beat the Devil out of it Leper Messiah's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    So, since we are in 1997 in this thread, and we are approaching the 18th anniversary of it, I figured it be worth bringing up the "Plymouth Meeting riot".

    www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=28883

    http://www.pwtorch.com/artman2/publi...cle_1632.shtml

    The Barbed Wire City DVD discusses this a bit. Basically, as after the Dudleys vs Balls and Axl match, a few fans instigated shit with Balls. One threw a punch at Balls, Axl threw a punch back, and chaos insued. Just curious, did anyone here attend this event? Was there any Fan Cam footage of it?

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    Straight Edge Champion Damon's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Just going back to the Saturn singles thing, I think he could have had some awesome matches in 1997/1998 with guys like Taz, Douglas, RVD, Sabu and Al Snow. Would have even liked to have seen what he could have done later on with guys like Mike Awesome and Rhyno. He probably would have needed a manager though (could he have somehow been a Fonzie guy? RVD, Sabu and Saturn vs. The Triple Threat?), as he couldn't talk for shit.

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    Member Fisto's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    unfortunalty there was always some guys at shows who weren't real fans. just douchebags who saw ecw as an outlet to get drunk, be obnoxious, and try to prove they were tough. no clue why they would choose guys like balls mahoney to prove it. him and others kicked asses/took abuse for a living, why would you wanna fuck with him? those kinda people had no respect for wrestling and ecw could have done without their money.

    looking back though, you gotta think that if people were going out in the crowd at any sporting event, much worse would happen. something that i think of is if a style like ecw with guys like sabu and rvd doing insane dives far into the crowd and sandman doing ladder spots in the audience in todays society. someone would surely get in the way, get hit, and try to file a lawsuit, or claim part of a broken table hit them and try to sue.

    something similar happened at this one fancam match i saw with sabu vs rocco rock. i dont know what exactly happened, but someone decided to start a fight with him in the crowd(last person i'd start a fight with) and it didn't take long for sabu to have him on the ground and continue the match.

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    Member The Kliq's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    This thread is a work of art.

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    Member Fisto's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    i know, i miss this thread

  18. #568
    It's all in the reflexes Baker's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Yeah, so I've been on a big time ECW kick of late. Decided to revisit the best thread in PW history and now I'm giving it a well-deserved bump.
    And here is a link to it in a more organized format.
    http://hardcoretheater.blogspot.com/

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Thanks for putting this thing over, some great memorabilia posted in this thread, my favorite is the ECW merch catalog that Kilgore uploaded: http://forums.prowrestling.com/showt...=1#post3794406

    The ECW force is strong on this forum right now, may try to get this thing going again tonight picking up where I left off with the Heatwave 97 episode of Hardcore TV.

    Going through and reading those earlier pages I never realized how many new posters this thread brought to PW, seems like every couple of pages somebody registered here just to say something in this thread, most of them are M.I.A. now though. Every once in a while I'll get a rep from this thread or somebody will bump it, PW just won't let it die.

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    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Quote Originally Posted by Baker View Post
    Yeah, so I've been on a big time ECW kick of late. Decided to revisit the best thread in PW history and now I'm giving it a well-deserved bump.
    And here is a link to it in a more organized format.
    http://hardcoretheater.blogspot.com/
    I've actually got this one going too: http://americanhardcoretheatre.weebly.com/

    Needs a ton of work but I've been tinkering around with it a little this morning and finally got a format that I like for posting the reviews and articles, broken up into years and within each year is a direct page for all the reviews and articles. Just need to copy the reviews over now, got to cut out all those god damn lol smilies, jesus. The live show results are all done(copied and pasted from that one site), some Inside the Numbers info, tried to use html code to copy the title histories and it looks like shit so that needs some work. Kilgore and I came up with a format for the Hardcore TV episode guide, we actually need help on this if anybody happens to watch an unedited episode of Hardcore TV you can see the format we went with in the 1996 section, match results, music videos, promos in a quick reference type of deal, shoot it to me and I'll put it up. Hell, if anybody feels froggy and wants to contribute ANYTHING just let me know and I'll put it up.
    Last edited by ShinobiMusashi; 05-06-2017 at 02:53 PM.

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    Senior Member MV's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Looks great! I'ma signal boost it on Twitter.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinobiMusashi
    I've actually got this one going too: http://americanhardcoretheatre.weebly.com/

    Needs a ton of work but I've been tinkering around with it a little this morning and finally got a format that I like for posting the reviews and articles, broken up into years and within each year is a direct page for all the reviews and articles. Just need to copy the reviews over now, got to cut out all those god damn lol smilies, jesus. The live show results are all done(copied and pasted from that one site), some Inside the Numbers info, tried to use html code to copy the title histories and it looks like shit so that needs some work. Kilgore and I came up with a format for the Hardcore TV episode guide, we actually need help on this if anybody happens to watch an unedited episode of Hardcore TV you can see the format we went with in the 1996 section, match results, music videos, promos in a quick reference type of deal, shoot it to me and I'll put it up. Hell, if anybody feels froggy and wants to contribute ANYTHING just let me know and I'll put it up.

  22. #572
    American Ninja ShinobiMusashi's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Thanks man. Was able to get a little work done on it today, I updated the Tri States Wrestling article with videos of the Owen Hart match(excellent) and an Eddie Gilbert vs Cactus Jack barbed wire match as well as all time results for all TSWA shows: http://americanhardcoretheatre.weebl...tling-alliance

    Edit; I've actually read in a few books about how none of the TSWA shows were filmed and the footage is super rare but I was able to find a few full shows on Youtube(that were just recently uploaded this year):

    Autumn Armageddon '90(Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler! REVERSE CAGE BATTLE ROYAL!):
    part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1-JnNyZ9d0
    part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zetqf4kH-Lo

    Autumn Armageddon '91(Owen Hart vs Takayuki Iizuka , Last Blood Battle Royal, Kevin Sullivan vs Terry Funk, Eddie Gilbert & Medusa vs Cactus & Luna Vachon, Abdullah the Butcher vs The Shiek steel cage)
    part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBzuwWOl9rY
    part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ON8VwdfUl0

    Bunch of other shows are on Youtube, video quality is super bad but it's cool, going to be watching some of these soon. This is where ECW came from.
    Last edited by ShinobiMusashi; 05-06-2017 at 06:10 PM.

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    Senior Member MV's Avatar

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    Default Re: American Hardcore Theatre: ECW's Real History

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinobiMusashi
    Thanks man. Was able to get a little work done on it today, I updated the Tri States Wrestling article with videos of the Owen Hart match(excellent) and an Eddie Gilbert vs Cactus Jack barbed wire match as well as all time results for all TSWA shows: http://americanhardcoretheatre.weebl...tling-alliance

    Edit; I've actually read in a few books about how none of the TSWA shows were filmed and the footage is super rare but I was able to find a few full shows on Youtube(that were just recently uploaded this year):

    Autumn Armageddon '90(Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler! REVERSE CAGE BATTLE ROYAL!):
    part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1-JnNyZ9d0
    part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zetqf4kH-Lo

    Autumn Armageddon '91(Owen Hart vs Takayuki Iizuka , Last Blood Battle Royal, Kevin Sullivan vs Terry Funk, Eddie Gilbert & Medusa vs Cactus & Luna Vachon, Abdullah the Butcher vs The Shiek steel cage)
    part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBzuwWOl9rY
    part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ON8VwdfUl0

    Bunch of other shows are on Youtube, video quality is super bad but it's cool, going to be watching some of these soon. This is where ECW came from.
    Great to see te beginnings of things.

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